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baptism
- Thread starter john313
- Start date
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I don't believe that babies should be baptized for two reasons: (1) they are incapable of understanding the nature of sin and are therefore blameless before God, and (2) they do not have the understanding or maturity to make a commitment to God. The issue becomes a matter of how old a person must be in order to be able to willfully choose to disobey God (which is what I understand sin to be), and how he must be to be able to believe in Jesus Christ and to decide that he wants to enter into a covenant relationship with Him. I think that both of these criteria can be met before a person reaches adulthood.john313 said:
Lindsey-Loo
Steel Magnolia
Good question. I think children must reach an age of accountability before being baptized. I think if you feel you need to be batized again, because you were too young to understand the first time, go right ahead.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
This question, as well as your prior statement...sojourner said:
...implies to me that your understanding of the purpose of baptism is different from mine. Maybe this difference in understanding is at the root of our disagreement as to when a person should be baptized.
Lindsey-Loo
Steel Magnolia
To enter God's family? What? Why does one need salvation from sin if they have no sin?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
In speaking of baptism as something God has commended of us, the Bible consistently refers to it in conjunction with repentence. When a family baptizes a child who neither has the need to repent nor the ability to make this commitment for himself, I see it that baptism as having little value. Certainly, Christian parents have the responsibility to teach their children about the tenets of their faith, not no one -- not even the most well-meaning parents -- can either repent on behalf of someone else or make a commitment to God on behalf of someone else.love said:
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Katzpur said:
Only those who are accountable for their actions need consider repentance. Children are not accountable for themselves, so they have no need for repentance before their baptism. That would be akin to requiring a bald man to comb his hair as part of his morning ritual.
Baptism has great value for everyone, for baptism affirms that grace which is offered to all humanity, even little children.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Katzpur said:
Of course it's commanded of those who profess belief. Why would it not be? It is also commended to the households of those who believe, as we find in Acts.
What? You don't find in baptism an outward sign of grace? Why do we need the Bible to tell us what is obvious?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
That alone is reason enough for me to believe that babies and very young children have no need of baptism. The scriptures command us to repent and be baptized. Someone who has never sinned cannot repent.sojourner said:
I disagree, but I am serious in wanting to understand your position. Would you mind explaining to me what the benefit of baptism is for someone who does not even know that this ritual/ordinance/sacrament, etc. has taken place. I am especially interested in your answer as it ties to your belief in the universal salvation of mankind. Since you believe (as I'm quite sure you do) that there is literally no one who has ever lived who will not be saved, what do you believe the value of baptism to be, and how, in your opinion, can baptism conceivably benefit someone who dies an an infant? What advantage does a baptized infant have over an unbaptized infant since both will be saved anyway?
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Katzpur said:
Children do not need the affirmation that grace is available to their little souls? They do not need to be made "part of the family?"
It has benefit, in that the stories are told and become part of the child's history -- "where I came from." It also has value for the parents -- as well as to the rest of the faith community, to be able to witness the conference of the Holy Spirit upon the child.
There is no "advantage" in baptism. It is an act of obedience, but the act does not bring us salvation, for salvation is already ours. That is how baptism is an outward sign. There is value, in that we are ritualistically complying with the requirements of the tribe. It's a sign to us and to the tribe that we are in compliance.
When you witness a baptism, what does the act of the baptism inform you of? What do you see happening? What kind of knowledge do you gain by witnessing the act?
Lindsey-Loo
Steel Magnolia
Uhhh...no, you have to believe and be baptized to make it to Heaven.
If we disagree here, we're going to disagree everywhere else on the subject of baptism.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
smoky*mountain*starlight said:
That we are saved by grace and not by our own devices is one of the very basic tenets of the faith. Is the water magical? Can the actions of a priest create God's salvation? Can our participation in an event but us a ticket? Can "proper belief" wipe out our sins? No. It is the grace of Christ that has put our sin in remission and reconciled us to God. Baptism is the outward sign of that grace at work in us.
If we "have" to do anything, it is to recognize our changed nature, accept it, and turn from our former selves to live our new life as part of the Body of Christ.