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(Baptism) What it is and what it does.

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by OP Husker, Feb 27, 2005.

  1. OP Husker

    OP Husker New Member

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    Baptism in the Koine Greek (the now dead language that the New Testament was written in) meant 'to dip repeatedly, to immerge,, submerge, (of vessels sunk, Polyb.1,51,6,8,4;) word #907 in Thayer's Greek-Englisk Lexicon of the new Testament.


    It is a burial in water:

    "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection." (Rom.6:3-5)

    "And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Phillip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Phillip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. (Acts 8:38-39)


    It is a translation:

    "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son: In Whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins:"


    It is a vehicle into:

    "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." (Gal.3:27)
    "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?" (Rom.6:3)


    It is the only way into Christ:

    Baptism cannot cleanse us of sins. It is used as a figure of speech in Acts 22:16 "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

    In Christ is where 'remission of sins' occur. "In Whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace." (Eph.1:7)
    "In whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins." (Col.1:13)
    "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus," (Rom.8:1)
     
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  2. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Welcome to the forums OP... We see Baptism in much the same way. You will find a few that won't accept the scripture at face value though. :D
     
  3. Acts19

    Acts19 New Member

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    The water does nothing, but the name (acts2:38) and obedience to His word does everything.

    This is why I believe in baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ "for" the remission of sins. His name takes away our sins.
     
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  4. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I disagree. I believe that baptism does cleanse us of sin. But perhaps I ought to qualify that statement. I don't believe there is anything particularly significant about the water itself, or that the cleansing is like a physical soap-and-water cleansing of the skin. Rather, I believe that when we receive the ordinance of baptism, we enter into a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ. We agree to take upon ourselves His holy name; we agree to obey His commandments; we agree to lift up our fellow man, and we agree to endure to the end. He, in turn, promises us forgiveness and redemption. We are in this way cleansed of the sins we have committed in the past. We are also promised that, as long as we remain faithful to Him, He will help us return to the presence of God someday. So it's an immediate cleansing but also an everlasting cleansing, provided we keep the terms of the covenant.

    A number of scriptures also refer to baptism specifically "for the remission of sins":

    Mark 1: 4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

    Luke 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

    Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
     
  5. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    Baptism does not cleanse us of any sin, nor is it a requirement of salvation. In 1 Conrithians, 1:17, Paul stressed I am not hear to baptize, but to spread the gospel. In addition, if baptism was a requirement for salvation or redeemed us of our sine, why would this not apply to the thief/murderer who was on the cross beside Jesus and asked the Him (because he believed through faith that Jesus was the Son of God) to remember him when He gets to heaven. Jesus said from this day forward you will be with me in paradise, absent from being immersed in any water. We as believers are baptized because we are being obedient to God's commandment and it is an outward reflection of our unity and new relationship with Jesus Christ. It is not a requirement for salvation.
     
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  6. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    So you just choose to ignore the scriptures that say otherwise?

    So what? Because Paul's calling was to spread the gospel and not to baptize, we're supposed to assume that baptism is really an unnecessary ordinance?

    May I ask how you know that the thief had not been baptized? (I'm not saying he was; I'm just suggesting that you not make any assumptions when they can't be substantiated). I can assure you that there are many individuals in prisons around the world today who have been baptized. Being baptized and being a criminal are not mutually exclusive.

    Finally, Paradise is not the same place as Heaven. Jesus told the thief He'd see him in Paradise on that very day. But as of Easter morning when Mary first saw Him in the Garden near the tomb, He told her He had not yet ascended to His Father in Heaven.

    Whatever. We obviously aren't going to agree on this issue.

    Kathryn
     
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  7. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    1 Peter 3:21- Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

    Seems pretty clear to me that it is.
     
  8. DeepShadow

    DeepShadow White Crow

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    Blueman, if we as believers are baptized because we are being obedient, wouldn't refusing baptism be disobedience? Wouldn't disobedience jeopardize your salvation?
     
  9. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    The thief died before the beginning of the church. He was under the old Law.

    Baptism goes against all logic. In doing so, it completely strips us of being able to rely on our own understanding. It's biggest requirement is that of humility: accepting God at his word and doing something that is simply crazy to any right thinking individual. Go figure!
     
  10. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    How often do you or I have a tendancy to disobey some of Christ teachings? We sin each and everyday, but are not slaves to sin becuase we are forgiven by God through are repentence. Your comment really does not validate any requirement of baptism being a prerequisite for salvation.
     
  11. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    That's got nothing to do with it. Baptism was a ritual in the Jewish culture, that also meant the washing of the hands before dining. I think that all Christians should be baptized, becuase God commanded it, but it is not a requirement of salvation.
     
  12. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    Your making an assumption that paradise and heaven are not the same thing. It almost like you have proof to validate your position. Your comments regarding the thief are assuming that he may have been baptized, right? Paul stated in scripture that to be "Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". The thief gained access to heaven through His faith in Christ and being baptized in the spirit. I'm okay with assuming the unlikelihood of this individual being baptized in water prior to coming to Christ. If Jesus was God in the flesh and God is omnipresent, why could'nt Jesus be in more than one place at the same time? The thief was with God in Heaven after he died. I'm also okay with us not agreeing on this position. I respect your opinion.
     
  13. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    How is it not a requirement for salvation if God commanded it?
     
  14. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    Linus, what you left out of this verse in 1 Peter, was that the author also that this water symbolizes "baptism" (the baptism through the Spirit when you accept Jesus Christ in your heart through faith) that now saves you (once again, referring to the baptism of the spirit), not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but a pledge of good conscience towards God. It saves you by the ressurection of Jesus Christ".

    The fulfillment of righteousness was Christ's incarnation, death on the cross and resurrection that provides salvation through faith and the grace of God (Ephesians 2:8,9). Also reference Acts 10:47 when Peter spoke to the Gentiles and asked his Jewish associates "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."

    Keep in mind this was before any of the Gentiles were baptized. If you receive the Spirit subsequent to accepting Christ through salvation and as you claim, baptism is a requirement for salvation, how were the Gentiles filled with the Spirit prior to being baptized? In verse 48, Peter requested they be baptized in Jesus Christ and go through the outward reflection (immersion in water) to "symbolize" that they have unified with Christ. It is not a requirement for salvation. If so, with all of the numerous New Testament scripture that references salvation, don't you think baptism in water would be consistently reinforced as a requirement for salvation and entry into Heaven? And once again, what about the thief on the cross? He was saved because He was baptized in the Spirit when he accepted Christ as the Son of God through faith.
     
  15. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    I am very confused by the apparent controversy regarding baptism of infants. I always understood the baptism to be the cleasing of original sin, usually carried out on behalf of the child (he/she being too young to understand), at the same time as the choosing of God-Parents. The choice would then be left open to the child (when older) to decide whether to receive 1st Communion.:)
     
  16. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but the first peter passage is referring to water. In the previous verse he mentions Noah and His family and their salvation through water.

    1 Peter 3: 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
    21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

    He's saying that water baptism doesn't phisically cleanse you, rather is cleanses you spiritually.
     
  17. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    Linus, God commands a number of things to be obedient to Him through His will, it does mean that it is a requirement of salvation. Just like Christians participate in communion, a command of Christ that we do this in rememberance of his death and resurrection, not all Christians participate in this process. It does not mean they are not going to Heaven if one has faithfully received Christ through salvation. There is always going to be issues that we have with consistently being obedient to Christ while we remain in these fleshly bodies and have a sinful (inner) nature. We will not be perfected until we enter into heaven and are made just like Christ. Baptism is an outward symbolism of what has been transformed inwardly (your spirit being baptized). Some prominent passages that many Christians use when witnessing to unbelievers is Romans 10:9,10 and John 3:16, Ephesians 2:8 as well as many others in the New Testament. I don't recall baptism in water being reinforced as a requirement for salvation in either of those passages. :)
     
  18. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    We will just disagree on this point. Immersion in water is a symbolism of that cleansing, it does not cleanse you sprititually, because you are already cleansed because you ask for forgiveness and repented when you accepted Christ. If being immersed in water cleanses you and your sin spiritually, why don't we immerse ourselves through the baptism ceremony daily, since you and I sin daily? We don't have to, because all God requires is that we repent and ask for forgivenss. It is your spirit that has been baptized and the immersion in water is a outward symbol of your unity with Christ, not a requirement for salvation. We do this out of honor to Christ and to show the world that we have been renewed. But we were saved when we accepted Christ through faith, not through faith and immersion in water. :)
     
  19. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    I wonder what Naamun would say to that Blueman? II Kings 5:1-14

    You might want to look that OT story up!
     
  20. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    Not according to scripture, my friend.

    Acts 2:38 - and Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    At the very least, you must admit that repentance and baptism go hand in hand. Each is invalid without the other. According to this passage, repentance and baptism are mentioned together as requirements for salvation.

    Mark 16:16 echoes this fact -He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

    You can't deny the fact that baptism saves. Peter said it on more than one occasion as I have shown, and Jesus Himself even states it. Like I said, at the VERY least, you have to admit that reentence and baptism must go together. Otherwise, you are denying what the scripure plainly states.

    If baptism doesn't save you, then why does 1 Peter say that it does?
     
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