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For the most part, I believe that most ECF's would view anyone who died without baptism as damned to hell..... but many early Christians believed in the normative necessity of water baptism, while also acknowledging the legitimacy of baptism by desire or blood.dan said:What do the early Church fathers have to say about those that died without accepting Christ's gospel through baptism?
Which, of course why we call a priest or a vicar when a newly born child looks as if he isn't going to 'make it' - in order that he may be baptized in life.Scott1 said:For the most part, I believe that most ECF's would view anyone who died without baptism as damned to hell..... but many early Christians believed in the normative necessity of water baptism, while also acknowledging the legitimacy of baptism by desire or blood.
We don't baptize the dead.... I don't believe that was ever a practice of the Catholic Church.
I don't see it. 'Baptised for the dead' sounds more like our practice of being baptised in the name of a saint to me than it does like baptising the dead. I can't be certain I'm reading this right, mind you - you're right that it's less than clear.NetDoc said:I Corinthians 15:29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I die every dayI mean that, brothersjust as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,
"Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die." 33 Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character." 34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of GodI say this to your shame. NIV
An interesting passage though a bit cryptic. Obviously the church in question was going off on tangents, but the author niether commends or condemns the practice.
I thought that's more or less what I did. One thing I do know, though, is that it clearly wasn't a common practice in the early Church (as I've never seen it referred to by a single Church Father) and even if it was practiced by some people in some places (and I couldn't blame or condemn them for this - it just seems like a natural outcome of feeling anxiety for the salvation of your non-Christian ancestors) it clearly died out pretty early on. It seems, in any case, like the sort of thing you might find in a new religion where most are converts but not so much later when almost everyone was born into the faith. I have to say, though, that from my perspective it seems to rely on a faulty understanding of God's mercy and seems almost superstitious, given that we do not believe, and have never done so, that people who never knew the Gospel are damned.NetDoc said:It refers to a believer being baptized for someone else who is dead. The LDS church does this a lot.
Too many times when people don't understand the scripture, they FORCE the meaning, which invariably distorts it. Many things written in scripture need the historical construct in order to fully appreciate what they are really referring to. When we lack that construct, we would be safe to shrug our shoulders and say "I just don't get it" and stick with the things we DO get.
Sort of how many of us feel about infant baptism as well!James said:I have to say, though, that from my perspective it seems to rely on a faulty understanding of God's mercy and seems almost superstitious, given that we do not believe, and have never done so, that people who never knew the Gospel are damned.
I understand your point, but I think that you can only hold to that by having a minimalist view of the purpose of baptism. As you know, we don't think it is solely for the forgiveness of sins and we don't believe that unbaptised infants will be damned, so I fail to see how this implies a faulty understanding of God's mercy or superstition, we just believe there's a lot more to baptism than you do and that infants therefore benefit from it as well. I don't expect you to agree with me, of course.NetDoc said:Sort of how many of us feel about infant baptism as well!
I actually think you have this backwards. You have baptism and then confirmation as your conversion process. Your baptism does not involve the decision of the infant nor does it require any repentance. Scriptural baptism includes BOTH... there is FAR MORE TO IT than just dunking someone in the water who has no understanding of what is happening. Before one becomes a Christian (is baptised) they need to count the cost of their discipleship, repent of their sins and believe with their hearts that Jesus is Lord. Until these are accomplished, nothing happens spiritually.we just believe there's a lot more to baptism than you do
Sorry, but you are misinformed. We do not have confirmation like the RCs and some Protestants do at all. We have Chrismation, which is somewhat analogous, but it is always received directly after baptism. Until we reach an understanding for ourselves the decision to be in the Church is made by our parents and godparents - not by us. This is how such things work in the real world too. The insistence on an 'age of reason' is a late (post-Schism) development in the western Church.NetDoc said:I actually think you have this backwards. You have baptism and then confirmation as your conversion process. Your baptism does not involve the decision of the infant nor does it require any repentance. Scriptural baptism includes BOTH... there is FAR MORE TO IT than just dunking someone in the water who has no understanding of what is happening. Before one becomes a Christian (is baptised) they need to count the cost of their discipleship, repent of their sins and believe with their hearts that Jesus is Lord. Until these are accomplished, nothing happens spiritually.
Here is the solution: Don't try and hold me to your canon, and I won't hold you to scripture. When I tell you WHAT I believe don't view it as an ATTACK on you or your religion. I can only tell you WHAT and WHY I believe. I promise that I WON'T force my beliefs on you.James said:Having said that, it's a bit difficult for me to discuss our beliefs with you if you insist on Scripture to back up everything. You know full well that we are not sola scripturalists and that I find that position problematic to say the least.
II Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. NIVJames said:Show me an unambiguous Scriptural reason for
dan said:What do the early Church fathers have to say about those that died without accepting Christ's gospel through baptism?
If I wanted to prove a point to a group of people I wouldn't use a wicked practice to do it. Paul here uses the practice to support doctrine. I would call that a commendation.NetDoc said:I Corinthians 15:29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I die every dayI mean that, brothersjust as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,
"Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die." 33 Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character." 34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of GodI say this to your shame. NIV
An interesting passage though a bit cryptic. Obviously the church in question was going off on tangents, but the author niether commends or condemns the practice.