Banned from Heaven

[InChrist]

Absolutely true about Satan being God's agent. God knew what Satan would do before he ever made him. If God didn't like what Satan does, he could restrain him or never make him in the first place!

It would not do any good to restrain satan or not make him in the first place because at some point there would arise another creature with the same self-centered attitude of satan, and another , and another. All created beings who are inherently less than God and who are given free will have the potential to abuse their freedom and choose destructive behaviors. So God has another plan and a better way to deal with this so that evil will not merely be restrained, it will be removed from the eternal realm He has in store for anyone who desires such an environment of peace and freedom.

 

[stvdv]

Good question and one I have asked people before. What kind of person could enjoy heaven if they knew a loved one was being tortured in hell?

Depends on many more speculations:
01: Definition of Heaven: "you forget the ones in Hell", "you forget the ones you loved on earth"
02: Definition of Hell "imagination used by proselytizers thinking they are more convincing now"
03:
99:

I rather refrain from speculations about a Heaven after I die, and I focus on a Heaven before I die (Heaven on Earth)
When I manage to create "Heaven on Earth" then maybe i speculate about "Heaven in Heaven" (I think I won't)

 

[LuisDantas]

There is a variation of the OP's question that has a significant role in the doctrine of Jodo Shinshu Buddhism.

 

[stvdv]

23 sep 2018 stvdv

So. This "benevolent" god will erase ALL memories of your "loved" ones?
Good to know-- kind of cruel and creepy, but hey! Can't be having sadness in "heaven" can we?

At least God is fair (gives the same to believers as well as unbelievers):
1): The believers get their "loved" ones memories erased when departing earth (their belief)
2): The unbelievers get their "loved" ones memories erased when departing earth (their unbelief)

Notes:
I always wondered why people think about what will happen to others after they die.
So in the above I kept it simple. Believers have no influence on unbelievers and v.v.

 

[stvdv]

23 sep 2018 stvdv

The scriptures use the word torment in reference to what one experiences in hell, not torture. This is because the individual who ends up in hell experiences self-torment, they are not tortured by God who wanted to set them free and bless them with eternal life.
How many families have sons or daughters living in some self-destructive lifestyle strung out on drugs, involved with gangs and crime, etc. who would love to welcome home and help their child to have a healthy, productive, happy life...yet their son or daughter refuses over and over clinging to damaging habits and behaviors? Love can't be forced. Help can't be forced.

I like the term "torment" much better than "torture" when in Hell
I believe not in "Hell after death"; I believe in "Hell before death"

How many religions cause their kids to become self-destructive?
How many families cause their kids to become self-destructive?
Love can't be forced. Family to be loving can't be forced either!

Just to make the picture more complete.

 

[stvdv]

Who's forcing? All this god of yours needed to do? Is not create hell. Simple.
Why only the two choices, anyway? That seems quite weak, to me, and rather uncreative.

I agree with making "simple" and taking out "Hell". I do not believe in Hell "that was decreated easy"

But now you want to create more options. Oh my God, or better Bob. Let them first figure out Heaven

 

[stvdv]

How would you actually know whether it is simple or not or what God needs to do? If God is an eternal Being and you are a finite creature, how could you possibly suppose to know?
The scriptures state that the lake of fire was created for the devil and the fallen angels. Humans only end up there when they reject God's goodness and love, choosing to follow satan.

Good observation !!! We even don't know `for a fact` whether God exists or not.

Spoiler: Above observation also Applies to many of your lines:

Banned from Heaven
Banned from Heaven
Humans only end up there when they reject God's goodness and love, choosing to follow satan [How would you actually know...?]
Banned from Heaven
Banned from Heaven
Yet, the fact that God doesn't want robots and freedom and choice is so important to God, this choice of Lucifer/satan had to be allowed to run it's course

From your perspective that may be how you see it, but is it possible that from God's perspective there may be a good reason for allowing satan to exist and do what he does?

Nicely put.
I would phrase it "From God's perspective there may be a good reason for allowing Christians to believe Satan to exist and have them imagine all kinds of things about Satan"

 

[stvdv]

Absolutely true about Satan being God's agent. God knew what Satan would do before he ever made him. If God didn't like what Satan does, he could restrain him or never make him in the first place!

You call "Satan being God's agent" Absolutely true ?
Are you Absolutely Sure about this?
Meaning having Absolute Proof of this ?

 

[stvdv]

Meaning? That your god is absolutely the one responsible for any and all things Satan does.

Satan is merely god's agent..

Seems a correct observation to me. Does not make God look Go(o)d to me though.

 

[stvdv]

23 sep 2018 stvdv

Since Christianity is ultimately an exercise of narcissism, then probably yes. Who cares if my kids burn forever if I am safe with Jesus here?
Ciao - viole

Quite a statement you make here. But I agree, because if someone declares "My religion is the Only True Religion" then that is per definition Narcissistic arrogance

Someone asked the question "how to know if someone is a narcissist". Answer was "Ask the narcissist if he is a narcissist". The real narcissist will proudly answer "Yes I am a narcissist"

Spoiler: 2 personal experiences of this

Once a Christian belittled the faith of others and also belittled atheists. So I told her "That is quite belittling and demeaning ". She replied "It is The Only Truth `Jesus is the only way`". So I said "Quite arrogant to say so; seems not `Jesus like` to me". And she replied "So be it; you can think I am arrogant, BUT it is the Truth, so I don't care". So I told her "You act like a narcissist, I will never speak to you again, unless you stop this arrogance; So Be It".

Once a Baptist preacher spoke belittling about Islam. I went to him afterwards and said "Speak positive about Jesus, don't belittle Islam. If Muslims enter this church to chop off heads because of your blasphemy, how you face Jesus?". He replied "The Bible says `Jesus is the Only Way` so I can say this". So I asked "You can kill someone, as long as you hit him using the Bible?". Yes he replied. I told him "I am done with this church".
[Some month later a big sword was found in front of this mega church with a warning note, that they are next on "their" to do list. At least I warned them. They did take my advise and deleted the online blasphemy later]

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

It would not do any good to restrain satan or not make him in the first place because at some point there would arise another creature with the same self-centered attitude of satan, and another , and another..

So. You have discovered yet another thing your god cannot do.

Meaning? Your god is not all that powerful after all!

I mean-- I can control pesky mosquitos in my backyard with several effective but simple means.

And you are saying your god simply cannot manage to snuff out the various Satans of the world?

Or is your god simply too lazy? Too incompetent? Perhaps he's too busy looking at himself in a mirror, and has become fascinated by that image*.





* with apologies to Piers Anthony's Incarnations of Immorality from whence I stole that notion.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

At least God is fair (gives the same to believers as well as unbelievers):
1): The believers get their "loved" ones memories erased when departing earth (their belief)
2): The unbelievers get their "loved" ones memories erased when departing earth (their unbelief)

Notes:
I always wondered why people think about what will happen to others after they die.
So in the above I kept it simple. Believers have no influence on unbelievers and v.v.

Then? Without our memories? There is no life after death at all-- for what ARE we, but the sum of all our memories?

At best, this is a shallow simulacrum of what we once were, devoid of major portions of our beings.

A kind of "Barbie Doll" version of life as we once knew it..

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I agree with making "simple" and taking out "Hell". I do not believe in Hell "that was decreated easy"

But now you want to create more options. Oh my God, or better Bob. Let them first figure out Heaven

Well. If *I* were creating the universe, and had decided to include "afterlife"?

I'd so make it a huge, giant selection of experiences-- and I'd not close the doors between each realm, permitting people to pass freely from one to the other and the next and the next and so on.

This is because an Infinity of Anything is a literal HELL, no matter how much gold you plate over the flaws...

 

[InChrist]

So. You have discovered yet another thing your god cannot do.

Meaning? Your god is not all that powerful after all!

I mean-- I can control pesky mosquitos in my backyard with several effective but simple means.

And you are saying your god simply cannot manage to snuff out the various Satans of the world?

Or is your god simply too lazy? Too incompetent? Perhaps he's too busy looking at himself in a mirror, and has become fascinated by that image*.





* with apologies to Piers Anthony's Incarnations of Immorality from whence I stole that notion.

No, I am saying that God has chosen to create beings with a freewill and freedom means the possibility of good or wrong choices and the consequences. God does not and cannot just snuff out the "various satans,of the world" as you so casually imply He could, without snuffing out or eliminating the entire human race.

It is only an All-powerful God who is capable of granting real freedom to His creatures, while also being able to accomplish a good outcome, in spite of any who abuse such freedom.

 

[sojourner]

I have no idea how God will remove pain, but trust He will. I doubt it will involve erasing memories, though. I do know that the benevolent, loving Creator God gives each of my loved ones multiple opportunities for eternal life, but the choice is up to them. I don't expect God to force them into heaven against their will.

So... just how far does this benevolence extend? How long will God wait for them before God slams and locks the door and invalidates their passports?

 

[InChrist]

So... just how far does this benevolence extend? How long will God wait for them before God slams and locks the door and invalidates their passports?

I trust that God has the perfect answer to that question and knows the exact moment when a person has refused His calling and love for so long and to the point that their heart and mind is so calloused that they will never turn or respond. God does not slam the door, yet people do walk away from it.

 

[sojourner]

I trust that God has the perfect answer to that question and knows the exact moment when a person has refused His calling and love for so long and to the point that their heart and mind is so calloused that they will never turn or respond. God does not slam the door, yet people do walk away from it.

Yes, but for how long?

My Bible, in the parable of the Prodigal, says that God the Father will watch and wait for us until we return. Until.

 

[InChrist]

Yes, but for how long?

My Bible, in the parable of the Prodigal, says that God the Father will watch and wait for us until we return. Until.

I don't know how long. I suppose when the person would no longer have the desire to ever be a Prodigal or return...having given themselves completely over to evil.

But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. Romans 2:5

 

[sojourner]

I don't know how long. I suppose when the person would no longer have the desire to ever be a Prodigal or return...having given themselves completely over to evil.

But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. Romans 2:5

The Bible tells you how long: until.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

No, I am saying that God has chosen to create beings with a freewill and freedom means the possibility of good or wrong choices and the consequences. .

That does not excuse god from curbing the behaviors of these "heavenly beings", does it?

Since by all accounts, Satan is literally a Magic Super-Being? It would mean that no mere human could possibly hope to go against such a Super Being.

Yet... the god your believe in lets this being run around and does NOTHING.

That literally means your god is either too weak, or is OKAY with it. There is no other option, here.

God does not and cannot just snuff out the "various satans,of the world" as you so casually imply He could, without snuffing out or eliminating the entire human race..

Why not? Is your god too inept to target a single being? According to the OT? God certainly DOES simply snuff out those he doesn't care for.

Remember the poor slob, who's only "crime" was to put a steadying hand on the Arc, as it was about to tumble from the cart-- for that "horrific crime" he was instantly killed.

So apparently your god is *capable* of snuffing out a single target--

--- yet absolutely refuses to even put Satan in .... HANDCUFFS? Whaaaat?

It is only an All-powerful God who is capable of granting real freedom to His creatures, while also being able to accomplish a good outcome, in spite of any who abuse such freedom.

That has 100% nothing to do with the problem of Satan....