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Featured Banned from Heaven

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by PopeADope, Sep 19, 2018.

  1. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    First of all, the Bible makes it clear that heaven wasn't created for man. Flesh can't inherit heaven, as it was created for Jehovah God to inhabit along with the myriad of spirit creatures. Only a few (144,000) will go to heaven in spirit form. Though, the kingdom of heaven includes earth, once things are settled.

    The line around getting there? Not familiar with that term, but I suppose you mean what does it take? God's undeserved kindness. Nothing we can do puts us in a position where we "deserve" the possibility. When you get the meaning of the Bible as a whole, harmonious from Genesis to Revelation, it tells about Satan's challenge to Jehovah's sovereignty. To be keenly aware of the significance of this, and live accordingly is what, I think, God is looking for in inhabitants of Paradise. Not those who, like Adam, would disrespect or unappreciated that.
     
  2. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    You're a JW?

    Hmm...welp, if there is a limit to how many spirits can enter, and you believe in free will, I'd assume you can entertain the possibility of someone living their life by God's rules and not getting in?
     
  3. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    Well, I do know what is immoral when I see it-- and I fully expect a being worthy of the title "god" to ACT like one.

    Instead of being what is basically a bully. Infinite torture-- regardless of who the victims are? Is immoral.

    There is absolutely zero way to spin that into other than infinite torture: an evil and immoral act.

    That does not make your case batter, in fact, it makes if much-much worse!

    Satan would be a shining example of god's absolute failure as a God. Free Will has nothing to do with this, either.

    Supreme Being would have forseen the problems, and halted them before they got out of hand to the point of needing an Infinite Torture Pit in the first place!
     
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  4. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    So, no free will in "heaven", then? What's the point of it, if it's just going to be stripped away forever?

    Again this makes no sense, and is immoral: If god wanted robots, why didn't god just create robots at the outset, and skip all the hell, torture, suffering and whatnot?
     
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  5. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    Well, yes. What part of "joke" didn't you understand? Moreover? It's also a physics joke...

    .... no?

    Well, if you have to explain a joke, it's never very funny is it?
     
  6. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps the one who can not make it to heaven is one who refuses to love and eventually can not be loved.
     
  7. Dragonslayer

    Dragonslayer Member

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    We will forget all of our relatives and friends forever, if they don't go to heaven. God will wipe the memory of them from our minds so we will never miss them, see God always has a plan to deal with every situation.
     
  8. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    No. I am not nor have I ever been a JW.

    Who, other than Christ, can live their life by God's rules in a system of inherited sin? Also, did Moses step foot in the promised land? No.
     
  9. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    Lighten up, Sunshine. :)

    It's just not that important.

    Besides: Have you never eaten a cake doughnut? They do exist, you know: Ask your favorite doughnut maker!

    As for "don't match things?" Well, Sunshine, that's just your opinion, isn't it?

    See the irony? No?

    Yeah.... theists are too often devoid of a funny-bone I guess.
     
  10. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    You, obviously. You seemed to have devoted several posts on the subject. It's kinda flattering.... !
     
  11. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Nope, not at all, all because whether it be
    ( a son or daughter or anyone else) if they are permanently banned from heaven.
    Their every existence is erase from memory. So I would have no memory of them in heaven at all.
    Otherwise, you really don't believe God would have people walking around in heaven sadden over someone who didn't make it. Heaven is a place of rejoicing,
    Not a place of sadness.
     
  12. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    That the question is even possible lampshades IMO a core flaw of the idea.
     
  13. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    My bad, then! It's not always clear when someone is making a funny, with just words.

    Mea Culpa.
     
  14. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    Well, now. If you want a discussion on "faith" and "agnosticism", we can do that.

    Once, way-way back in the Day, there were a large group of internet commentators, who (incorrectly as it turns out) saw "agnosticism" as "atheists who were not 100% certain with respect to gods".

    These people had been lied to, for so long, by theists, about what the word "atheist" meant, that they looked around for an alternative to describe themselves.

    They incorrectly thought that to be an atheist, meant to believe there were no gods. And looking for a word that was not quite that Faithful? Latched onto agnosticism.

    It was a natural mistake, and one that is still on-going even today.

    Due to the aforementioned theists' continuing to spread the lie about what an atheist is.

    So, this group would say if asked, "do you believe in god", "no, I'm an agnostic".

    When in reality, they were atheists all along! They just had a false definition hammered into their heads by theists.

    .....

    It should be noted, however, that you can be an atheist, and an agnostic* and still believe for certain there are no gods.

    You can also be an atheist, and agnostic, and be absolutely uncertain about gods' existing or not existing.

    Just as you can be a theist and an agnostic, and have certain belief in gods or a god.

    Also, there are theists who are also agnostics, but lack certain belief in god(s) existence. (Mother Teresa was one such.. .she admitted she was not sure if her god even existed, in her personal diary)

    * Agnostic is distinct from atheist, as I learned much later. Agnosticism is addressing a different question than atheist.

    An atheist is addressing the claim: "god(s) exist!" with "unless you have proof, I do not believe that"

    An agnostic is addressing the statement: "we can know god(s)" or "we can know about god(s)". A agnostic is expressing doubt about such claims--

    Indeed, it ought to be noted that the word "god" is almost devoid of useful meaning.

    Why? Because there are nearly 8 billion different meanings! No two are 100%, exactly alike...!
     
  15. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    Someone who claims that one (or more) gods exist.

    Simple.
     
  16. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    That is quite sad, to have a loved one simply ripped out of the mind of the poor believer.

    I think I'd rather be in hell-- than to have ALL my memories of my most cherished friends, just ripped away as if they never were!

    Your god is NOT good!
     
  17. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    I don't think of heaven as a place of "us over them" or think most Christians do either. Instead it is a place of love, peace, joy, beauty, creativity, and freedom, especially freedom from my own sinful attitudes. A friend and I discuss this often and look forward to the time when we will be free from the sin and self-centered attitudes we still deal with in the flesh. Free to be all God created us to be. Sure we know peace now and we are being transformed now, but in eternity the freedom from sin will be complete.

    I have said often that God does not refuse people entrance into heaven, much less throw them into hell. Maybe you have missed my perspective or what the Bible reveals on the subject. The only ones thrown into the eternal lake of fire is satan and the demons. All are invited into heaven, but those who reject God's offer of eternal love, peace, and joy choosing instead the sinful. self-centered way of satan follow him there by their choice. God does not force anyone into heaven.

    I don't know exactly what you mean by "ordinary sin" as if some sin is okay. The scriptures are clear that all sin is harmful, damaging, and a violation of God's perfection and holiness. Nevertheless, I am confident that God understands various degrees of sin, ignorance or evil and a person's heart attitude.and motivations and is capable of dealing with each person justly.
     
  18. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    Obviously God did not want robots or the world would not be the way it is with all the wrong choices apart fron His will and the sad, destructive consequences on display. But real love involves choice and that is what God has allowed each of us to have. Those in heaven, as I said already, made the choice to be there and love God. The moment one trust Jesus and is born again the transformation process begins and never ends until one is in eternity. One who knows the love of God and desires to be changed into the image of Christ will have no desire to ever choose anything other.Yet, I think heaven will be filled with endless opportunities for healthy, creative, adventurous, choices which have nothing to do with sin or self-centeredness.

    But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord. 2 Corinthians 3:18

    And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Romans 8:28-30
     
  19. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    No God has not failed. Satan is a clear example of a creature trying to be God, who isn't God. Very sad and destructive. But it is a lesson we all need to see and understand. Freedom can be abused.
     
  20. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    Unless, naturally, there is no reciprocation (as in my case) and one eventually learns that "trust in jesus" was 100% misplaced...

    I trusted for years, decades even. Then I learned I had been misled...

    Oh well. I'm not the only exception to your claim, above, am I?
     
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