(Bahaullah): Did Joseph and Mary live in Nazareth when Jesus was born?

[danieldemol]

I presented no dogma,please read the following:

Standford Rives on Birthplace of Jesus

Excerpt from Original Gospel of Matthew: Appendices Vol. 2 pages 148-50 -- (available in our Amazon bookstore) without its footnotes.

Is It Nazara? Or Is It Nazareth?

A late Greek translator misread Nazara—a city in the south—as Nazareth—a city in the north that did not likely exist until several more decades after Christ. Scholars have concurred on this point because the early church writers such as Origen circa 207 AD and Jerome in the early 400s repetitiously quote numerous Matthean passages speaking of Nazara not Nazareth. Origen did not know of any manuscript that spelled it as Nazareth. Also, in the Shem-Tob Matthew 3:13, it speaks of Nazarel which is close to Nazara.
http://astore.amazon.com/jwoogm-20.
Professors Jeffrey J. Bütz and James Tabor in The Secret Legacy of Jesus (Bear & Company, 2010) at 75-76 explain that Jesus was likely called ‘Jesus the Nazarene’ and not “Jesus of Nazareth.” They explain “many scholars now make the argument that the name Jesus of Nazareth was a mistranslation of the original phrase, Jesus the Nazarene, and that it did not refer to the town of Nazareth at all.” They note that Nazareth may not even have been in existence in Jesus’ day.
This explains why in the earliest church, Christ and Christians were called Nazarenes. See Matt. 2:23, “fulfill be called a Nazarene”; Luke 24:19 “Jesus the Nazarene”;Acts 24:5 “sect of the Nazarenes.”
The New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia concurs: “In the time of Eusebius and St. Jerome (Onomasticon), its name was Nazara (in modern Arabic, en Nasirah), which therefore, seems to be the correct name; in the New Testament we find its derivatives written Nazarenos, or Nazoraios, but never Nazaretaios. The etymology of Nazara is neser, which means ‘a shoot.’”
While later Greek manuscripts have Matthew 4:13 say Nazareth, the earliest Greek manuscripts of Matthew must have likewise spelled the word as “Nazara.” We know this because this is how it was quoted in the early church writings. See, Theodor Keim, Edmund Martin Geldart, The History of Jesus of Nazara (Williams and Norgate, 1879) Volume 4 at 108 fn. 1 (“Origen...prefers to write nazara in 10:16 of his commentary on Matthew three times...[and seven times in his commentary on John]. Jerome gives it nomine Nazara....”)
Rather than anyone realizing a translation error, it was later assumed Nazara was the same as a city later known as Nazareth. Thus, “Nazara” came to be “generally considered the earliest form of the name [Nazareth] in Greek.” (“Nazareth,” Wikipedia.)

In Matthew 4:13 in the Shem-Tob, we see it uses Nazerel, in keeping with the earliest Greek tradition.
This helps explain the prophecy that “he shall be called a nazarene.” The name of the town nazara / nazerel not Nazareth was in view. This has etymological Messianic associations that are important which the Nazareth mistranslation destroys. Nicholson explains that in Isaiah 11:1, the Messiah is a “branch” (netser) from Jesse’s root. In Zechariah 6:12, we read: “Branch (NTSR) shall he be called.” Nicholson then notes: “It is generally held that there is a real etymological connexion between Nazara and netser.” (Nicholson: 33.) Thus, calling Jesus a Branch was to call him a netser in Hebrew. This was the root meaning of Nazara.

It thus appears the correct name for Jesus’ early residence was Nazara. It is a key change in spelling so we see a fulfilled prophecy of Zechariah 6:12. See also Isaiah 11:1.
Netser-Branch Prophecy Behind ‘He Will Be Called A Nazarene’
Jerome said the Hebrew OT had a prophecy that Messiah would be called a “Nazarene.” Many Christians wonder where can this be found. It requires knowledge of Hebrew to recognize it. Jerome is focusing upon the word Branch in Hebrew which is Netser. The Septuagint mistranslated it in 257 BC with a Greek word meaning “flower” rather than Branch in Zechariah 6:12. Thus, Jerome argued the verse had been lost by mistranslation in the Greek Septuagint. Netser was the word he focused upon.

Zechariah 6:12 in modern Bibles follows the Hebrew, not the Septuagint Greek of 257 BC. The word “branch” is netser in Hebrew—the root word for the city of Nazara—the true name of the town where Jesus lived at one time. Thereby we realize Jerome was recognizing Zechariah 6:12 is the verse Matthew meant as the prophecy ‘he will be called a Nazarene.’ Today Zechariah 6:12 reads about a Messiah figure: “the man whose name is The BRANCH (Heb. NTSR).”
END: Excerpt from Standford Rives, Original Gospel of Matthew: The Appendices (2014) at 148-150 available in our Amazon bookstore at http://astore.amazon.com/jwoogm-20.
Nazara or Nazareth - Correct Birthplace of Jesus

It is a reasonable understanding, rather. Right, please?

Regards

It is a correct understanding of the “Nazara or Nazareth - Correct birthplace of Jesus” article. I misunderstood you to be drawing your conclusion from the other article which didn’t use language as certain.

That being said according to the article Jesus was born in the city Nazara, not in the wilderness under a date palm tree, so your not really proving the Quran’s view point here.

 

[The Anointed]

After Alexander Helios III, the father of Mary, was murdered by Herod the Great, the seven year old Mary [who is believed to be the grand-daughter of Mark Antony and Cleopatra] was removed from her mother and taken north into the land of Galilee to the Zealot commune named 'Nazareth', where she was raised under the protection of the Jewish zealots whose aim it was, to throw off the yoke of Roman rule and establish a descendant of King David, back on the throne of Israel.

Hanna/Anna, the mother of Mary, and the daughter of the high priest Yehoshua/Jesus III, and his wife Phanuel of the tribe of Asher, remained in Jerusalem and never left the temple day and night, where she worshiped God.

And when Mary had brought her child from Bethlehem of Judea, where it had been born some 41 days earlier, to the temple in Jerusalem to perform the ceremony of purification, it was her mother Hanna, who after seeing her grand-child Jesus at the temple, gave thanks to God and spoke about the child to all who were waiting for God to set Jerusalem free.

After performing the ceremony of Purification, Joseph, Mary and her Child returned to their home in Nazareth.

 

[sooda]

I believe so because Luke bears the testimony of Mary. It has to be because she is the only one who would have known the Magnificat.

Luke wasn't around... He lived in Antioch, Syria and his geography is terrible.

 

[sooda]

 

[sooda]

The idea of Jesus coming from Nazareth is a Christian myth. His original title was not Jesus of Nazareth but Yeshua the Nazarene (Yeshua Ha Notzri = Jesus the Wise).
There existed no village named Nazareth in the first century.
But the authors of gMatthew and gLuke wrote beautiful stories, even adding lists of the imagined ancestors of Jesus.
The original followers of Yeshua called themselves Nazarenes (not Christians).

Jesus of Nazareth, a phrase occurring seventeen times in the New Testament, has identified a small, unwalled town in southern Galilee with Jesus for all time.

Located some fifteen miles west of the Sea of Galilee and twenty miles east of the Mediterranean Sea, Nazareth had a population between two hundred and four hundred people at the beginning of the first century.

 

[sooda]

Josephus called Sepphoris “the ornament of all Galilee.” Herod Antipas chose this site in 4 BC. as the capital of his government. He most likely built the theater as well. Josephus said Sepphoris was the largest city in Galilee and an exceptionally strong fortress at the time of the First Revolt in 66 AD.

The people of Sepphoris supported Vespasian in the Jewish Revolt, surrendering to the Romans and thus preventing the destruction of the city (WarIII.2.4).

They even minted coins in honor of Vespasian as the “peace maker.”

Sepphoris had 10,000-12,000 inhabitants in the early Roman period.. That was a large city for the times. Most towns had fewer than 500 people.

 

[paarsurrey]

Jesus of Nazareth, a phrase occurring seventeen times in the New Testament, has identified a small, unwalled town in southern Galilee with Jesus for all time.

Located some fifteen miles west of the Sea of Galilee and twenty miles east of the Mediterranean Sea, Nazareth had a population between two hundred and four hundred people at the beginning of the first century.

"two hundred and four hundred people"
So Nasira/Nazira was not even a town, it was a village. Right, please?
Regards

 

[sooda]

"two hundred and four hundred people"
So Nasira/Nazira was not even a town, it was a village. Right, please?
Regards

Yep.. Palestine never had a big population..... 600-700,000 total at the most. The Bible is just full of gross exaggerations... plus the myths.

 

[The Anointed]

Josephus called Sepphoris “the ornament of all Galilee.” Herod Antipas chose this site in 4 BC. as the capital of his government. He most likely built the theater as well. Josephus said Sepphoris was the largest city in Galilee and an exceptionally strong fortress at the time of the First Revolt in 66 AD.

The people of Sepphoris supported Vespasian in the Jewish Revolt, surrendering to the Romans and thus preventing the destruction of the city (WarIII.2.4).

They even minted coins in honor of Vespasian as the “peace maker.”

Sepphoris had 10,000-12,000 inhabitants in the early Roman period.. That was a large city for the times. Most towns had fewer than 500 people.

According to Josephus the historian, Sepphoris, which was only about 4 miles from Bethlehem of Galilee, and a few kilometres from Nazareth, had a population of around thirty thousand and he called it, "The Ornament of Galilee."

Thirty thousand old girl, 3 times more that your erroneous estimate.

Around the time of Herod’s death in the spring of 4BC, just after he had ordered the slaughter of the innocents around the district of Bethlehem of Galilee, who were two years and below, according to the time that the wise men had seen the heavenly sign that had heralded the birth of Jesus in 6 B.C. there were riots among the peasants of the area in Galilee of which Sepphoris was the centre. Judas, the son of Hezekias attacked the arsenal of Herod in the city of Sepphoris in order to arm the peasants.

The Romans under Quintillius Varus of Syria, attacked and burnt the city, putting down the uprising in which many families died and others were taken prisoner and transported to Rome, where they were sold as slaves. But Joseph, with his wife and her child had escaped the slaughter by fleeing into Egypt.

After a failed suicide attempt, which I believe may have been an option given to him by Caesar Augustus, in the spring of 4 BC, Herod the Great died, then in the spring of 3 B.C., after the death of Herod his father, when Antipas returned from Rome where his father’s will had been ratified by Augustus, he chose and rebuilt the magnificent city of Sepphoris as his capital city for ruling over Galilee.

BTW; Historians estimate that there were about 6-7 million Jews living in the Roman Empire (plus another 1 million from Persia.

 

[sooda]

According to Josephus the historian, Sepphoris, which was only about 4 miles from Bethlehem of Galilee, and a few kilometres from Nazareth, had a population of around thirty thousand and he called it, "The Ornament of Galilee."

Thirty thousand old girl, 3 times more that your erroneous estimate.

Around the time of Herod’s death in the spring of 4BC, just after he had ordered the slaughter of the innocents around the district of Bethlehem of Galilee, who were two years and below, according to the time that the wise men had seen the heavenly sign that had heralded the birth of Jesus in 6 B.C. there were riots among the peasants of the area in Galilee of which Sepphoris was the centre. Judas, the son of Hezekias attacked the arsenal of Herod in the city of Sepphoris in order to arm the peasants.

The Romans under Quintillius Varus of Syria, attacked and burnt the city, putting down the uprising in which many families died and others were taken prisoner and transported to Rome, where they were sold as slaves. But Joseph, with his wife and her child had escaped the slaughter by fleeing into Egypt.

After a failed suicide attempt, which I believe may have been an option given to him by Caesar Augustus, in the spring of 4 BC, Herod the Great died, then in the spring of 3 B.C., after the death of Herod his father, when Antipas returned from Rome where his father’s will had been ratified by Augustus, he chose and rebuilt the magnificent city of Sepphoris as his capital city for ruling over Galilee.

Most of Josephus's numbers are gross exaggerations.

Population of Sepphoris in the Early Roman Period Previous estimates of the city’s population size are too large.29 Zeev Weiss, Ehud Netzer, and Eric Meyers have all suggested that Sepphoris had 10,000-12,000 inhabitants in the early Roman period and 14,000-22,000 in the middle and later Roman period.30 However, they admit that these figures are estimates.
The Population Size of Sepphoris: Rethinking Urbanization ...
www.academia.edu/33894484/The_Population_Size_of_Sepphoris_Rethinking_Urbanization_in_E

 

[sooda]

What was the population of Nazareth during Jesus' time ...
https://www.quora.com/What-was-the-population-of-Nazareth-during-Jesus-time
Mar 24, 2018 · At the moment, archaeologists are attempting to establish whether the village of Nazareth even existed at the time of Jesus, particularly during the reign of King Herod.

There is good evidence of a village of around 200 houses later in the first c...

 

[The Anointed]

Most of Josephus's numbers are gross exaggerations.

Population of Sepphoris in the Early Roman Period Previous estimates of the city’s population size are too large.29 Zeev Weiss, Ehud Netzer, and Eric Meyers have all suggested that Sepphoris had 10,000-12,000 inhabitants in the early Roman period and 14,000-22,000 in the middle and later Roman period.30 However, they admit that these figures are estimates.
The Population Size of Sepphoris: Rethinking Urbanization ...
www.academia.edu/33894484/The_Population_Size_of_Sepphoris_Rethinking_Urbanization_in_E

Yea! Well I'll accept the estimate given by Joseph the historian who lived in those times, and that was about thirty thousand.

 

[sooda]

Yea! Well I'll accept the estimate given by Joseph the historian who lived in those times, and that was about thirty thousand.

He was born in 37 AD and employed by Vespasian.. His other population figures have proven false.

 

[sooda]

It was not until the late Hellenistic (Hasmonean) period (150–50 B.C.E.) that Jerusalem flourished again, just as it had at the time before the Babylonian destruction. Geva’s population estimate: 8,000.

The next period—the Herodian (or Early Roman) period—extending from about 50 B.C.E. to the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E., includes the time when Jesus is associated with the city.

Again, this period is very well documented archaeologically, but estimates of the city’s population at the time of the Roman destruction vary widely.

One scholar estimated the number at nearly a quarter million, another at more than a 100,000. Several put the number around 75,000.

A number of others estimated between 25,000 and 75,000. Geva, always the population minimalist, estimates the number at 20,000.

In the Byzantine period (fourth–seventh centuries C.E.), Jerusalem was a Christian city.a Estimates of the city’s population are as high as 100,000 and then go down gradually to 70,000 to 60,000 to 50,000 to 25,000.

Geva’s estimate: 15,000.

continued

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-sites-places/jerusalem/ancient-jerusalem/

 

[The Anointed]

He was born in 37 AD and employed by Vespasian.. His other population figures have proven false.

Sorry old girl, but Josephus the Historian who lived in those times and had visited Sephorrus, has proven the population figures of your more recent time scholars, to have been incorrect.

Admittedly he was referring to Sepporrus after it had been rebuilt by Herod Antipas.