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Featured (Bahaullah): Did Joseph and Mary live in Nazareth when Jesus was born?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by paarsurrey, Jun 12, 2019.

  1. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Did Joseph and Mary live in Nazareth,Galilee when Jesus was born?

    Regards

    ____________
    Post #2
     
    #1 paarsurrey, Jun 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  2. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Did Joseph and Mary live in Nazareth when Jesus was born?

    There are different narrations in the NT Bible in this connection.

    They lived in Nazareth, and traveled to Bethlehem because of a census.
    And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed. And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city. And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:) To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child. And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered. And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn. Luke 2:1-7

    They lived in a house in Bethlehem, and moved to Nazareth after returning from Egypt.

    Jesus was born in a house in Bethlehem, where he was visited by the wise men from the east.

    Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? ... And they said unto him, in Bethlehem of Judaea .... And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him. Matthew 2:1-11

    An angel appeared to Joseph in a dream, telling him to take Mary and Jesus to Egypt.

    The angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and ... he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt: And was there until the death of Herod. Matthew 2:13-15

    They stayed in Egypt until an angel told Joseph in a dream to return to Israel.

    When Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel ... And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel. Matthew 2:13-15

    So they returned to Israel, where Joseph was told by an angel in a dream to go to Nazareth.

    But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee: And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth. Matthew 2:22-23
    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/before_birth.html



     
  3. David1967

    David1967 Well-Known Member
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    Yes. On 4th street on the corner of Ash right next to the Jiffy Lube.
     
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  4. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe so because Luke bears the testimony of Mary. It has to be because she is the only one who would have known the Magnificat.
     
  5. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Why is this question related to Bahaullah?
     
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  6. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    I do not think the accounts are in conflict when the whole context is considered, but nonetheless as far as the writings of Baha'u'llah are concerned the title Jesus of Nazareth refers to the hometown of his family, and not because of where he was born.

    Jesus was born in Bethlehem, and his family's hometown was Nazareth.
     
    #6 shunyadragon, Jun 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
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  7. Marcion

    Marcion Tantra-Yoga Universalist

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    The idea of Jesus coming from Nazareth is a Christian myth. His original title was not Jesus of Nazareth but Yeshua the Nazarene (Yeshua Ha Notzri = Jesus the Wise).
    There existed no village named Nazareth in the first century.
    But the authors of gMatthew and gLuke wrote beautiful stories, even adding lists of the imagined ancestors of Jesus.
    The original followers of Yeshua called themselves Nazarenes (not Christians).
     
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  8. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Jesus wasn’t born under a date palm either *shrugs*
     
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  9. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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  10. Marcion

    Marcion Tantra-Yoga Universalist

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    Thank you, very interesting to know the exact meaning. Anyways, the origin was not a village called Nazareth, but it sounds similar, so you can understand how they made the switch.
    I think the origin may have been Nazarene rather than Nazarite though.

    This switch from taking an interest in a place of origin rather than a spiritual title is paralelled in the changes the Christians made in the original sayings of Yeshua, where the goal of striving to find the Rule of God inside your own consciousness was exchanged for being prepared for the return of Jesus Christ as a judge of humanity by being a good Christian.
    The esoteric was dumped and replaced by exoteric mythology.
     
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  11. BSM1

    BSM1 Who's a good boy?

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    Nor at Christmas...
     
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  12. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    (Bahaullah): Did Joseph and Mary live in Nazareth when Jesus was born?

    NO! When Jesus was born Joseph and Mary were visiting Bethlehem of Judah.

    Mary was born in Jerusalem, in the year 20 B.C., as the grand-daughter of Yehoshua/Jesus III, on her mother’s side, who was the high priest in Jerusalem from 36 to 23 BC and is believed to have been murdered at the orders of Herod the Great. Her father, Heli, a Davidic and Hasmonean prince, called Alexander Helios III, was supposed to have been executed in 13 B.C., in the world where many Davidian aspirants, as the “young lions of Judah”, were eliminated by the cruel and tyrannical King Herod the Great., Etc.

    It is said that after the death of her father, Alexander Helios III=Heli, “who was a father of renowned,” the seven-year-old Mary [who is believed to be the grand-daughter of Mark Antony and Cleopatra on her father’s side] was removed from her mother and taken north into the land of Galilee where she was raised under the protection of the Jewish zealots whose aim it was, to throw off the yoke of Roman rule and establish a descendant of King David, back on the throne of Israel.

    It was in Nazareth that the 13 year-old Mary was visited by a messenger of God, who told her that she would in the near future become pregnant and bear a son who would be a descendant of King David, Mary was also told that her elderly aunty Elizabeth, the sister of her mother 'Hanna' was pregnant.

    She then moved down into the land of Benjamin to the home of her elderly aunty. Being only 13, she would have undoubtedly been escorted by one of her Zealot guardians. Many family and friends had gathered there to Rejoice with Elizabeth, at her old aged pregnancy, and it was there that Mary united with her Half Brother Joseph from Cyprus, the son of her father Heli, by another woman.

    She then moved back to Nazareth and although pregnant, she was engaged to Joseph the Son of Jacob, who had no sexual relations with her, until after she had given birth to Jesus the son of Joseph the son of Alexander Helios III.

    The child Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judah, and when it was eight days old it was named Jesus, 33 days later, Mary took the child to the temple in Jerusalem and performed the ceremony of purification according to the law of Moses, immediately after which, they returned to teir home in Nazareth, where, almost two years later, the wise men from the east who had seen the star that had heralded his birth came looking for him, and found him in Nazareth, which was only some two miles from Bethlehem of Galilee. .

    It was then that Herod sent his men in to kill all boys who were two years and younger, which was done in accordance to the time that Herod had learned from the wise men when they had first seen the star, which was almost two years before they came in search of the future king of Israel.

    That night, the wise men were warned not to reveal to Herod the location of the child, and to return to their home by a different route from that on which they had come, and Joseph was warned to get out of bed immediately and take Mary and her child and flee into Egypt.

    Herod’s secret police had eyes and ears throughout the entire land, and when he realised that he had been tricked and the wise men were not going to return and reveal the child’s location as promised, he was furious and gave the order to kill all the male children in the district that Herod's spies had confirmed that the wise men with their entourage had travelled to, which was around Bethlehem of Galilee, who were two years and below according to the time that he learned from the wise men about when they had first sighted the star that had heralded the birth of the promised king and savour.

    According to Josephus the historian, Sepphoris, which was only about 4 miles from Bethlehem of Galilee, and a few kilometres from Nazareth, had a population of around thirty thousand and he called it, "The Ornament of Galilee."

    Around the time of Herod’s death in the spring of 4BC, just after he had ordered the slaughter of the innocents around the district of Bethlehem of Galilee, who were two years and below, according to the time that the wise men had seen the heavenly sign that had heralded the birth of Jesus in 6 B.C. there were riots among the peasants of the area in Galilee of which Sepphoris was the centre. Judas, the son of Hezekias attacked the arsenal of Herod in the city of Sepphoris in order to arm the peasants.

    The Romans under Quintillius Varus of Syria, attacked and burnt the city, putting down the uprising in which many families died and others were taken prisoner and transported to Rome, where they were sold as slaves. But Joseph, with his wife and her child had escaped the slaughter by fleeing into Egypt.

    After a failed suicide attempt, which I believe may have been an option given to him by Caesar Augustus, in the spring of 4 BC, Herod the Great died, then in the spring of 3 B.C., after the death of Herod his father, when Antipas returned from Rome where his father’s will had been ratified by Augustus, he chose and rebuilt the magnificent city of Sepphoris as his capital city for ruling over Galilee.
     
  13. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Does one mean that when Jesus was born, Mary was not in Bethlehem of Judea but she was in Galilee? Right, please?
    Please elaborate it further.

    Regards
     
    #13 paarsurrey, Jun 14, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
  14. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Confusing and it sounds like you need some lessons in English, Mary and Joseph were in Bethlehem for only a short time when Jesus was born. Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem, and there is no conflict in the Bible. His family resides in Nazareth, and his title is Jesus of Nazareth based on his family residence.
     
    #14 shunyadragon, Jun 14, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
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  15. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    (Bahaullah): Did Joseph and Mary live in Nazareth* when Jesus was born?

    Our friend @Marcion here pointed out in his post #7 that there was no village by the name Nazareth in Jesus' times. Please amend the title of the thread to read Nasirah instead of the word Nazareth in my posts in the thread. Nazareth is incorrect as pointed out by our friend here:

    Is It Nazara or Nasirah? Or Is It Nazareth?
    Nazara or Nazareth - Correct Birthplace of Jesus

    Thanks for our friend @Marcion to point out the mistake and sorry for the correction.

    Regards
     
    #15 paarsurrey, Jun 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  16. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    (Bahaullah): Did Joseph and Mary live in Nasirah when Jesus was born?

    "However, Biblical scholarship has recently called the identification of Bethlehem as Jesus’ birthplace into question: If Jesus was indeed born in Bethlehem, why is he called a Nazorean and a Galilean throughout the New Testament, and why is Bethlehem not mentioned as Jesus’ birthplace outside of the infancy narratives in the Gospels? This has caused some to wonder if Jesus was actually born in Nazareth."
    https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org.../jesus-historical-jesus/where-was-jesus-born/

    "What do we have, then? Four stories that all agree that he was from Nazareth. Two stories, contradictory and neither of them credible, go out of their way to explain how he could conveniently be born elsewhere in order to fit theological aims of the authors. To me, the simplest and most likely explanation seems to be that he was in fact born in Nazareth, and those two stories were just that, stories."
    https://www.quora.com/Was-Jesus-born-in-Bethlehem-or-Nazareth

    "Jesus was almost certainly born in Nazareth, whatever such popular carols as O Little Town of Bethlehem might suggest, a BBC documentary says.
    Scholars interviewed for The Virgin Mary, to be shown on BBC1 on the Sunday before Christmas, conclude that the biblical accounts of Jesus's birth in Bethlehem are unreliable.
    The programme, which portrays Mary as a 12- or 13-year-old called Miriam who is sold into marriage to Joseph, will upset traditionalists.
    Christopher Maunder, a Roman Catholic theologian from York St John College at Leeds University, told the programme: "Of all the birth stories, the idea that Jesus was born in Bethlehem is probably the least convincing."
    Mark Goodacre, a Bible historian from Birmingham University, said: "It is much more likely that Jesus was born in somewhere such as Nazareth and that what has happened is that the Gospel writers have placed him in Bethlehem because they see him as son of David."
    BBC says Christ was born in Nazareth

    So, Jesus was not born in Bethlehem. Right, please?

    Regards
     
    #16 paarsurrey, Jun 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  17. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Actually no correction, because Nasirah, Nazara or Nazirah, Arabic an-Nāṣira, Hebrew Naẕerat, simply the same place. Spelling and language changes over the millennia, and is not a meaningful issue. Splitting frog hairs again . . .

    The archaeology indicates it was occupied in ~2200 BCE, and a Roman house has been found dating from the time of Jesus.
     
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  18. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    It would be more correct to say that according to the said scholars it is “more likely” Jesus was born in Nazareth than to say with dogmatic certainty “Jesus was not born in Bethlehem”.
     
  19. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I presented no dogma,please read the following:

    Standford Rives on Birthplace of Jesus


    Excerpt from Original Gospel of Matthew: Appendices Vol. 2 pages 148-50 -- (available in our Amazon bookstore) without its footnotes.

    Is It Nazara? Or Is It Nazareth?

    A late Greek translator misread Nazara—a city in the south—as Nazareth—a city in the north that did not likely exist until several more decades after Christ. Scholars have concurred on this point because the early church writers such as Origen circa 207 AD and Jerome in the early 400s repetitiously quote numerous Matthean passages speaking of Nazara not Nazareth. Origen did not know of any manuscript that spelled it as Nazareth. Also, in the Shem-Tob Matthew 3:13, it speaks of Nazarel which is close to Nazara.
    http://astore.amazon.com/jwoogm-20.
    Professors Jeffrey J. Bütz and James Tabor in The Secret Legacy of Jesus (Bear & Company, 2010) at 75-76 explain that Jesus was likely called ‘Jesus the Nazarene’ and not “Jesus of Nazareth.” They explain “many scholars now make the argument that the name Jesus of Nazareth was a mistranslation of the original phrase, Jesus the Nazarene, and that it did not refer to the town of Nazareth at all.” They note that Nazareth may not even have been in existence in Jesus’ day.
    This explains why in the earliest church, Christ and Christians were called Nazarenes. See Matt. 2:23, “fulfill be called a Nazarene”; Luke 24:19 “Jesus the Nazarene”;Acts 24:5 “sect of the Nazarenes.”
    The New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia concurs: “In the time of Eusebius and St. Jerome (Onomasticon), its name was Nazara (in modern Arabic, en Nasirah), which therefore, seems to be the correct name; in the New Testament we find its derivatives written Nazarenos, or Nazoraios, but never Nazaretaios. The etymology of Nazara is neser, which means ‘a shoot.’”
    While later Greek manuscripts have Matthew 4:13 say Nazareth, the earliest Greek manuscripts of Matthew must have likewise spelled the word as “Nazara.” We know this because this is how it was quoted in the early church writings. See, Theodor Keim, Edmund Martin Geldart, The History of Jesus of Nazara (Williams and Norgate, 1879) Volume 4 at 108 fn. 1 (“Origen...prefers to write nazara in 10:16 of his commentary on Matthew three times...[and seven times in his commentary on John]. Jerome gives it nomine Nazara....”)
    Rather than anyone realizing a translation error, it was later assumed Nazara was the same as a city later known as Nazareth. Thus, “Nazara” came to be “generally considered the earliest form of the name [Nazareth] in Greek.” (“Nazareth,” Wikipedia.)

    In Matthew 4:13 in the Shem-Tob, we see it uses Nazerel, in keeping with the earliest Greek tradition.
    This helps explain the prophecy that “he shall be called a nazarene.” The name of the town nazara / nazerel not Nazareth was in view. This has etymological Messianic associations that are important which the Nazareth mistranslation destroys. Nicholson explains that in Isaiah 11:1, the Messiah is a “branch” (netser) from Jesse’s root. In Zechariah 6:12, we read: “Branch (NTSR) shall he be called.” Nicholson then notes: “It is generally held that there is a real etymological connexion between Nazara and netser.” (Nicholson: 33.) Thus, calling Jesus a Branch was to call him a netser in Hebrew. This was the root meaning of Nazara.

    It thus appears the correct name for Jesus’ early residence was Nazara. It is a key change in spelling so we see a fulfilled prophecy of Zechariah 6:12. See also Isaiah 11:1.
    Netser-Branch Prophecy Behind ‘He Will Be Called A Nazarene’
    Jerome said the Hebrew OT had a prophecy that Messiah would be called a “Nazarene.” Many Christians wonder where can this be found. It requires knowledge of Hebrew to recognize it. Jerome is focusing upon the word Branch in Hebrew which is Netser. The Septuagint mistranslated it in 257 BC with a Greek word meaning “flower” rather than Branch in Zechariah 6:12. Thus, Jerome argued the verse had been lost by mistranslation in the Greek Septuagint. Netser was the word he focused upon.

    Zechariah 6:12 in modern Bibles follows the Hebrew, not the Septuagint Greek of 257 BC. The word “branch” is netser in Hebrew—the root word for the city of Nazara—the true name of the town where Jesus lived at one time. Thereby we realize Jerome was recognizing Zechariah 6:12 is the verse Matthew meant as the prophecy ‘he will be called a Nazarene.’ Today Zechariah 6:12 reads about a Messiah figure: “the man whose name is The BRANCH (Heb. NTSR).”
    END: Excerpt from Standford Rives, Original Gospel of Matthew: The Appendices (2014) at 148-150 available in our Amazon bookstore at http://astore.amazon.com/jwoogm-20.
    Nazara or Nazareth - Correct Birthplace of Jesus

    It is a reasonable understanding, rather. Right, please?

    Regards
     
  20. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Actually no correction, because Nasirah, Nazara or Nazirah, Arabic an-Nāṣira, Hebrew Naẕerat, simply the same place. Spelling and language changes over the millennia, and is not a meaningful issue. Splitting frog hairs again . . .

    The archaeology indicates it was occupied in ~2200 BCE, and a Roman house has been found dating from the time of Jesus.
     
    #20 shunyadragon, Jun 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
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