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Bahaism and proofs against it.

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
If you look at the Arabic word in this verse which is translated as "Final Meaning", or "Final Fulfillment", you will see, it is "Taweel".

In the Quran, there are many examples when the word Taweel is used. For example in the Chapter of Joseph.
This word always indicate, a symbolic fulfilment!

Hello. Could you please provide an example?
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
All the best with disproving the Bahá’u’lláh is a Prophet. As I understand it, Islamic eschatology is largely based on Hadiths and materials beyond the Quran. So at the outset, what the day of judgement looks like along with the resurrection is difficult to discern from the Quran alone.

I thought the qur'an was pretty clear on the subject.
 

Pete in Panama

Active Member
I thought the qur'an was pretty clear on the subject.
We seem to be having a difficult time focusing here as some quote (loosely) the Quran, some refer to later commentaries, and others reject the Quran altogether.

Add to that we got changing the name of the Baha'i Faith to "Bahaism" kind of brings to mind how western areas talked about "Mohammedanism" for Islam. This is definitively not a healthy situation (mho).
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Seems to me, the verse is talking about, when it already happened, they are unaware. It is the tense of the verse.
The verse does not say, you don't believe it will happen. It says, when it will happen, you are unaware.

I think it's clear the qur'an is talking to the Meccans of the day as it did many hundreds of times. These translations show the warning is being given before the final day, and therefore before it's too late:

Sahih International: And warn them, [O Muhammad], of the Day of Regret, when the matter will be concluded; and [yet], they are in [a state of] heedlessness, and they do not believe.

Pickthall: And warn them of the Day of anguish when the case hath been decided. Now they are in a state of carelessness, and they believe not.

Yusuf Ali: But warn them of the Day of Distress, when the matter will be determined: for (behold,) they are negligent and they do not believe!

Shakir: And warn them of the day of intense regret, when the matter shall have been decided; and they are (now) in negligence and they do not believe.

Muhammad Sarwar: Warn them of the woeful day when the final decree will be issued; they are neglectful and faithless.

Mohsin Khan: And warn them (O Muhammad SAW) of the Day of grief and regrets, when the case has been decided, while (now) they are in a state of carelessness, and they believe not.

Arberry: Warn thou them of the day of anguish, when the matter shall be determined, and they yet heedless and unbelieving.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
I explained this before.

The hint is, the Quran say, just before Day of Resurrection all will die. All will be expired in earth and heaven.
This in Bahai view is spiritual and metaphorical.

Correct, and it says so, or alludes to it, dozens of times. It is only logical that for everyone to be resurrected, they must first die.
 

Pete in Panama

Active Member
Correct, and it says so, or alludes to it, dozens of times. It is only logical that for everyone to be resurrected, they must first die.
--that's only if we're talking about a physical resurrection and there are other kinds of resurrection that can happen any time. It revolves around which definition of "resurrect" we're using, as Merriam-Webster used this sentence: "The scientist said that he could resurrect the dead but in reality he was trying to resurrect his acting career."

More than one definition.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
--that's only if we're talking about a physical resurrection and there are other kinds of resurrection that can happen any time. It revolves around which definition of "resurrect" we're using, as Merriam-Webster used this sentence: "The scientist said that he could resurrect the dead but in reality he was trying to resurrect his acting career."

More than one definition.

The qur'an speaks of a physical afterlife hundreds of times (always in thumb-up or thumbs-down terms), so I think it's inescapable that the resurrection is meant as physical.
 

Pete in Panama

Active Member
The qur'an speaks of a physical afterlife hundreds of times (always in thumb-up or thumbs-down terms), so I think it's inescapable that the resurrection is meant as physical.
That's all well and good for you, but what if someone else doesn't think it's inescapable?

Like, how about the next guy saying the question is mute & simply shuts down the convo? Maybe someone else who says "let's talk about it". I'm not trying to be sarcastic & I apologize in advance if that's what you may be sensing here. What I'm getting at is the fact that there are many Muslims who still possess a sense of wonder.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Hi Steve,

Please provide the Quranic verses you consider to provide clarity about the day of resurrection and judgement.

Thanks

As I said, the "believe or burn" theme is repeated, or alluded to, hundreds of times. The pleasures of heaven are obviously physical as well. Here are a couples of examples. There are many more:

47:12 - Indeed, Allah will admit those who have believed and done righteous deeds to gardens beneath which rivers flow, but those who disbelieve enjoy themselves and eat as grazing livestock eat, and the Fire will be a residence for them.

47:15 - The garden, which is promised to the pious, is like one in which there are streams of unpolluted water, streams of milk of unchangeable taste, streams of delicious wine, and streams of crystal clear honey. Therein they will have all kinds of fruits and forgiveness from their Lord. On the other hand (can these people be considered like), those who will live forever in hell fire and will drink boiling water which will rip their intestines to bits?

58:15 - Allah hath prepared for them a dreadful doom. (This an example of the Qur'an alluding to Hell without specifically naming it).

As to resurrection:

58:18 - Yusuf Ali: One day will Allah raise them all up (for Judgment) .....
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
That's all well and good for you, but what if someone else doesn't think it's inescapable?

They would have to have a reason for saying that physical descriptions do not define a physical situation.

Like, how about the next guy saying the question is mute & simply shuts down the convo? Maybe someone else who says "let's talk about it". I'm not trying to be sarcastic & I apologize in advance if that's what you may be sensing here. What I'm getting at is the fact that there are many Muslims who still possess a sense of wonder.

It would be interesting to see an example that makes it sound as though Heaven and Hell are strictly spiritual. I certainly can't think of one.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
I think it's clear the qur'an is talking to the Meccans of the day as it did many hundreds of times. These translations show the warning is being given before the final day, and therefore before it's too late:

Sahih International: And warn them, [O Muhammad], of the Day of Regret, when the matter will be concluded; and [yet], they are in [a state of] heedlessness, and they do not believe.

Pickthall: And warn them of the Day of anguish when the case hath been decided. Now they are in a state of carelessness, and they believe not.

Yusuf Ali: But warn them of the Day of Distress, when the matter will be determined: for (behold,) they are negligent and they do not believe!

Shakir: And warn them of the day of intense regret, when the matter shall have been decided; and they are (now) in negligence and they do not believe.

Muhammad Sarwar: Warn them of the woeful day when the final decree will be issued; they are neglectful and faithless.

Mohsin Khan: And warn them (O Muhammad SAW) of the Day of grief and regrets, when the case has been decided, while (now) they are in a state of carelessness, and they believe not.

Arberry: Warn thou them of the day of anguish, when the matter shall be determined, and they yet heedless and unbelieving.
In my view it is warning Muslims. It is saying to Muslims that, the Promised Day comes, yet, they will be unaware after it came. This is to tell them, they need to watch. It is similar to what Jesus said. He said His return is like a thief in the night. Meaning, when He comes most people won't be aware the He already came. So, they must watch and investigate.
In Baha'i view Bahullah is the Promised return of Christ.
This has been always the case. When a Messiah was promised, after He came, people were unaware and rejected it. Such as Jesus. Or Muhammad, who were also promised in the past Books, but when they came, they were not recognized. In Bahai view...
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Basis of life.

Human parents. Two humans.

Have sex and have babies equal life.
Boy babies or girl babies. Human.

Who grow in the same atmospheric state that a human adult lives within.

All humans die.

Some humans unknown suddenly gain phenomena events suddenly.

Pre existing advice books are read owning pre written human answers.

So you believe in the pre owned book answers up until a new unknown experience occurs.

Phenomena involving the human life witnessed in group gatherings is the proof. Phenomena seen.

Advice however human natural pre existed lived and known ignored. As holy advice supportive community humans.

Not group separation.

Now if that new experience used no pre existing human written advice then observation would give the observed human subject no comparative argued human status. About anyone before them.

So we compare. Pre human phenomena advice to newly gained human advice.

As any one self human only lives experiencing life about 100 years.

Bahai was witnessed as one self.

Advice is pre known human self aware advice.

Once we were family lost to the conditions of occult group over thrown losses in family unity social and trade. Irradiation losses includes memories family human behaviour.

Made aware in phenomena. Retells a known human advice occult radiation had changed our behaviours. Knew new teaching needed to be applied to reason for social change.

The same ground hog day any human awakes to any day.

Reasoning the ideal.
Phenomena data recorded proof.
Loss of humanity in behaviours realised.
Conditioning by rituals spiritual imposed to assist moral behaviour brain mind body re conditioning.

Peace meditative life prayer and communal blessings to bring into reference peace on earth good will to everyone theme.

Reactions by historic event in phenomena always vary. Radiation mass varied reason.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
All the best with disproving the Bahá’u’lláh is a Prophet. As I understand it, Islamic eschatology is largely based on Hadiths and materials beyond the Quran. So at the outset, what the day of judgement looks like along with the resurrection is difficult to discern from the Quran alone.

The foundation of the Bahai theology is from ahadith.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I honestly do not understand the "need" for stepping on other peoples religious belief :oops:

Brother. I think you should not step on other peoples "needs" or "wants" because it seems like you have a "need" to do that to others. If we go to question everyones "need" its a never ending exchange of judging others.

Everyone came to this forum to discuss religion. That is why its called religious forums. Said with all due respect.

Assalamu Alaikum akhi.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Brother. I think you should not step on other peoples "needs" or "wants" because it seems like you have a "need" to do that to others. If we go to question everyones "need" its a never ending exchange of judging others.

Everyone came to this forum to discuss religion. That is why its called religious forums. Said with all due respect.

Assalamu Alaikum akhi.
It was not out of a need that i commented, it was out of concern and pondering. Nothing more
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Hi Steve,

Please provide the Quranic verses you consider to provide clarity about the day of resurrection and judgement.

Thanks

Here's more:

19:15 - He (John) was born and died in peace and will be brought back to life again in peace.

19:33 - Peace on me (Jesus speaking shortly after his birth) the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive (of course this would be said by Christians to be a prediction of his resurrection after being crucified, but the Islamic belief is that he's referring to the general resurrection that everyone will experience).

19:37 - But the sects differ among themselves (regarding the nature of Jesus): and woe to the unbelievers because of the (coming) Judgment of a Momentous Day (this sort of phrase referring to the Final Day is sprinkled throughout the Qur'an).

19:38 - How well they will hear and see on the day they come to Us (more of the same).

19:39 - Warn them of the woeful day.

Surah 19 is one of the 86 revealed in Mecca, where his audience was the pagans he was trying, mostly in vain, to convert to Islam. I find it a bit ironic that most of the Qur'an was actually directed at unbelievers. Only after he relocated to Yathrib, where he began to attract followers, did he actually have an appreciable number of Muslims to preach to. That's where all the rules that set Islam apart were concocted.
 
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