Bahai's say: Quran is speaking about "the Gospel" which is the "New Testament"

[2ndpillar]

Nope. You are making that up. Lool. I really want to see how many things you are gonna keep making up here and there about things you dont know about.

Let me give you a street sign. Hahaha. Hilarious this is.

Mate. No Arab in the world uses any Harakat. No one needs them. No one uses them. Only the Quran is printed with Harakat for Thajweedh.

Any more??

In the note you just made, it was full of vowels, consonants, and punctuation. The historical Quran came with and without "tashkil", causing confusion in the different variants used. With and without "tashkil" there is room for mistranslation. especially with the stylistic changes over the ages. Probably a major cause for the different Muslim sects. That combined with the false narratives progressing much later after the supposed Muhammad's murder.
Arabic diacritics - Wikipedia

 

[2ndpillar]

Haha. Yes. The same person.

Lets see.



well.. Thats another lie.

His doctoral thesis is on a Christian Evangelists life. Its a life story. Thats his Doctoral Thesis, and that's how he got the Phd. So dont make things up.

He can't read arabic. Just like you. So both of you are bogus scholars.

Smith has a masters in Islamic studies (academic scholarship). Tell me again, what was your advanced degree in. As for reading Arabic, he is quite up front about that, but he is surrounded by people who are experts. He lived 17 years among the northern Indian Muslims, where is family were missionaries since 1913. I can't read Aramaic, Greek, or Latin, but that doesn't mean unlike the "wise and intelligent" (educated), that I can't understand the "kingdom of God" (Matthew 11:25). As for being a "scholar", I am not. Presently I spend my time gardening and woodworking. My education ended with a BS in Civil Engineering. I spend some time shooting down false narratives for my own pleasure.

 

[firedragon]

In the note you just made, it was full of vowels, consonants, and punctuation. The historical Quran came with and without "tashkil", causing confusion in the different variants used. With and without "tashkil" there is room for mistranslation. especially with the stylistic changes over the ages. Probably a major cause for the different Muslim sects. That combined with the false narratives progressing much later after the supposed Muhammad's murder.
Arabic diacritics - Wikipedia

Lol. Mate. No one needs thashkils to read Arabic. Go to any Arab country and read anything.

Your making things up.

 

[firedragon]

Smith has a masters in Islamic studies (academic scholarship). Tell me again, what was your advanced degree in. As for reading Arabic, he is quite up front about that, but he is surrounded by people who are experts. He lived 17 years among the northern Indian Muslims, where is family were missionaries since 1913. I can't read Aramaic, Greek, or Latin, but that doesn't mean unlike the "wise and intelligent" (educated), that I can't understand the "kingdom of God" (Matthew 11:25). As for being a "scholar", I am not. Presently I spend my time gardening and woodworking. My education ended with a BS in Civil Engineering. I spend some time shooting down false narratives for my own pleasure.

You claimed Jay had a doctorate in Islamic whatever. Now you downgraded him. Since you know you made that up.

Also. This is a forum. No point putting up resumes. That could be made up too just like you made up so many things.

Analyse and understand things. Not repeat other people’s pseudo scholarships.

 

[firedragon]

As for Jay Smith, his doctorial scholarship, with respect to the religion of Islam, seems to be superior to your own.

Smith has a masters in Islamic studies (academic scholarship).

Can you see your regression? Jay Smith went downward from "Doctoral" to "Masters" in Islamic XXXXX.

1. Anyway, can you tell me where Jay Smith did his "Masters in Islamic Studies"?
2. Did they teach a Masters in Islamic Studies without teaching Arabic (Since you claimed Jay is candid he can't read arabic).

 

[firedragon]

The historical Quran came with and without "tashkil", causing confusion in the different variants used.

See, if you substantiate your claim, only then what you say is authentic. But of course so far you have ignored every single request for a substantiation. You won't respond to this also objectively of course, but its a must to ask this question.

Thus, can you show me a few "confusions" made because of the lack of Thashkils?

 

[2ndpillar]

Lol. Mate. No one needs thashkils to read Arabic. Go to any Arab country and read anything.

Your making things up.

Open up your Quran. Does it have Thashkils? Do the different Thashkils produce different meanings?
Proof The Quran Is Corrupted! Conflicting Textual Variants (Part 2). - YouTube
This is a comparison between the popular Haf's Quran, and the next popular Warsh Quran, which shows different meanings from the same writing due to Thashkils. Keep in mind there have been found 92,000 different variants at this time. Also keep in mind there are more than 30 Qurans sold in the middle east at this time, despite Haf's was canonized in 1924, not because it was the best, but because it was the most popular.

 

[firedragon]

Open up your Quran. Does it have Thashkils?

I think you didnt read one of my posts. No problem. Quran is elaborated for Thajweedh. But if you have proficiency in Arabic, any one can read the plain script. Any script.

By the way, you changed your position from no Arab can read without markings, to only the Quran. Strange isn't it?

Proof The Quran Is Corrupted! Conflicting Textual Variants (Part 2). - YouTube
This is a comparison between the popular Haf's Quran, and the next popular Warsh Quran, which shows different meanings from the same writing due to Thashkils. Keep in mind there have been found 92,000 different variants at this time. Also keep in mind there are more than 30 Qurans sold in the middle east at this time, despite Haf's was canonized in 1924, not because it was the best, but because it was the most popular.

Yeah. See, this is the internet and there are veterans in the field. So every tom dick and harry knows these videos.

Repeating the same lie won't work mate. It doesnt make any lie, a truth.

Can you show me your "30 Qurans" and give me the exact differences?

(Psst. Of course you won't answer this because you never answer any question)

Provide some sophomore scholarship at least. Not people who are as ignorant as a 5 year old speaking to audiences like you. Yes?

Thanks. Anything else?

 

[2ndpillar]

See, if you substantiate your claim, only then what you say is authentic. But of course so far you have ignored every single request for a substantiation. You won't respond to this also objectively of course, but its a must to ask this question.

Thus, can you show me a few "confusions" made because of the lack of Thashkils?

Apparently, according to Islam traditions, the Quran of 652 was published to undo the confusion of different readings. As for different meanings from different Qurans, which there are over 30, look to a comparison between the Hafs and the Warsh, the two most used Qurans. All told, there have been 92,000 different variants exposed to date.
Proof The Quran Is Corrupted! Conflicting Textual Variants (Part 2). - YouTube

As for Jay Smith, his research into the Quran is better than his textural criticism of "Christianity". Here he bolsters his Trinity dogma by quoting Matthew 28:19, which is not included in early text.
Textual Criticism of the Quran - Part 1 - YouTube

 

[firedragon]

Apparently, according to Islam traditions, the Quran of 652 was published to undo the confusion of different readings

But you claimed you dont believe the hadith because it is 250 years after Muhammed. Is that not hypocrisy to say that and now quote it? Strange isn't it?

Also, you have to know the tradition which you are quoting fully. It says that the older manuscript that was existing from Abu Bakr was taken as the critical text to make the mushafs to distribute. So you missed that point because no one really quotes it since it works against your agenda.

Anyway, you said there are 30 difference Qurans which is of course what Jay Smith claims but could you please as I asked list them and give me the differences? As I said, you have not answered it which I know you WILL NOT because you dont know what you are talking about.

As for Jay Smith, his research into the Quran is better than his textural criticism of "Christianity". Here he bolsters his Trinity dogma by quoting Matthew 28:19, which is not included in early text.
Textual Criticism of the Quran - Part 1 - YouTube

This is not textual criticism of the Quran. This is good for children. No. Its not even good enough for children really. Too low in standard.

Textual criticism is not done this way. If you think this is textual criticism just because you find a video online, then you should do a little more research. I mean, at least a tad more.

Tell me. Do you know or have Jay and Fadi taught you about Adhaaun and Naseey? Can you ask them and let me know? Basics in critical methods.

 

[firedragon]

Apparently, according to Islam traditions, the Quran of 652 was published to undo the confusion of different readings. As for different meanings from different Qurans, which there are over 30, look to a comparison between the Hafs and the Warsh, the two most used Qurans. All told, there have been 92,000 different variants exposed to date.
Proof The Quran Is Corrupted! Conflicting Textual Variants (Part 2). - YouTube

As for Jay Smith, his research into the Quran is better than his textural criticism of "Christianity". Here he bolsters his Trinity dogma by quoting Matthew 28:19, which is not included in early text.
Textual Criticism of the Quran - Part 1 - YouTube

Anyway, you want to discuss textual criticism, go to this thread. Not here. Its irrelevant.

Quran and New Testament, are they the same in authorship, manuscript evidence, textual reliability?

 

[firedragon]

@2ndpillar

Another thread on the Quran criticism for you.

Form Criticism of the Qur'an - Controversial?

Torah, Gospels and Quran: Are they reliable historical sources? Emphasis on the Gospels.

You can present your case of Quran criticism there.

 

[2ndpillar]

I think you didnt read one of my posts. No problem. Quran is elaborated for Thajweedh. But if you have proficiency in Arabic, any one can read the plain script. Any script.

By the way, you changed your position from no Arab can read without markings, to only the Quran. Strange isn't it?



Yeah. See, this is the internet and there are veterans in the field. So every tom dick and harry knows these videos.

Repeating the same lie won't work mate. It doesnt make any lie, a truth.

Can you show me your "30 Qurans" and give me the exact differences?

(Psst. Of course you won't answer this because you never answer any question)

Provide some sophomore scholarship at least. Not people who are as ignorant as a 5 year old speaking to audiences like you. Yes?

Thanks. Anything else?

If you can't attack the message, attack the messenger. The Saudi prince is even trying to disassemble your traditions to get his people into the 21st century. Islam was never a great scientific community, they only appropriated science from the Greeks, Persians, Romans, China and India, and now the only way they can get into a modern world is to withdraw from their flawed traditions of a man and book mentality of Wahhabism. The book is flawed, and is modified despite what is said in Surah 10:15, 15:9, and 18:27, and the man is a compilation of other individuals, put together over 100 years after his murder. They appropriated the holy of holies from Jerusalem, the Haj from the Jewish Hag, and say that Abraham lived in a nonexistent Mecca in 1900 BC. The Quran says the book of the Jews is from God. I suggest that you read it. The Quran bolsters the gospel of Yeshua (Isa ibn Mariam). I suggest you find out what the gospel of Yeshua actually is, and not from Bahai. What the Quran doesn't mention is Islamism. History shows the Arab Umayyads being Zoroasters, Nestorians, or according to their coinage, either Christian, or followers of Sol Invictus, which is the base for Christianity, depending on their locations.
As for a history lesson, the Roman general Gallus, in 26 BC, traveled through the area of Mecca according to the historian Strabo, and his only reference to the area of Mecca was a barren desert. No center of the world on a trade route, with canals and fruit trees. The trade route was on the African side of the Red sea were there was available navigable seas and drinking water.

 

[firedragon]

If you can't attack the message, attack the messenger. The Saudi prince is even trying to disassemble your traditions to get his people into the 21st century. Islam was never a great scientific community, they only appropriated science from the Greeks, Persians, Romans, China and India, and now the only way they can get into a modern world is to withdraw from their flawed traditions of a man and book mentality of Wahhabism.

So since you made up about the language things you have no clue of, now you go into some other tangent of hate preaching. Its not relevant you see.

You claimed the Quran was speaking about the Gospel, referring to the Bible. Thats why you are here in this thread.

 

[2ndpillar]

So since you made up about the language things you have no clue of, now you go into some other tangent of hate preaching. Its not relevant you see.

You claimed the Quran was speaking about the Gospel, referring to the Bible. Thats why you are here in this thread.

I gave you a link to differences in different main stream Qurans, and you apparently didn't even look. As for the Quran, there are at least 37 different Qurans which can be bought in Muslim countries, all having differences, and only one is now being considered canonical. Your supposed earliest "complete" Quran, made up of 68 fragments, making a 97% complete Quran, can not even be dated prior to 721 AD. According to Islam tradition, the dissenting fragments compiled in 652 were burned according to Islamic tradition. If they had pulled Mohammad's compiled Quran of 632 from under the bed of his wife, how come there were dissenting fragments, since there were no dialectic markings at that time? I spoke up because the Quran doesn't speak about the "New testament". It spoke about the gospel, new revelation (Injil) of Isa ibn Maryam, who is Yeshua, a prophet of God.

 

[firedragon]

I gave you a link to differences in different main stream Qurans,

Not relevant. Give it in a relevant thread.

 

[Muffled]

May I assume we have the same today's Gospel and read the same Jesus sayings?

From what I heard from Jesus, Judaism and Islam are very different from, if not opposing, Jesus message.

A good faithful Jew, as a good faithful Muslim, is supposed to worship/praise his Creator and obey/observe certain rules/rituals for being inspired also by his Creator whose image is supposed being of a Supernatural Supreme King/Judge.

May I know your opinion about how a 'formal/typical' Christian is supposed to act towards his Creator?

And the most important question: What is the image of our Creator as revealed by Jesus?
If someone couldn't get this image, within himself, after reading Jesus sayings only, he would have no choice but to see his Creator as Jews and Muslims do; i.e. like a Supernatural Supreme King/Judge.

I believe one must distinguish between true Islam and true Judaism. Would you discount Isaiah 53 because it is Jewish? Would you discount the Qu'ran because it says God is His Son?

 

[firedragon]

Would you discount the Qu'ran because it says God is His Son?

Which verse?

 

[Muffled]

By their own spiritual teachers og follow believers.
They can og course learn from others mistakes too

I believe the blind following the blind end up blind.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I believe the blind following the blind end up blind.

Who are the blind?