Bahai's say: Quran is speaking about "the Gospel" which is the "New Testament"

[firedragon]

This thread is purely based on Bahai claims. Not Muslim claims, not Christian claims, or what anyone else claims. I say this upfront because some argument about what Muslims claim or what Christians claim may enter this thread which is every day occurrence. So again, this thread is purely about "WHAT BAHAI"S CLAIM". NOT what OTHERS CLAIM. I hope that is clear enough.

The Bahai's claim they believe The New Testament is the same as the Quran and is Gods revelation. Well, some Bahai's may not say this, and some may reiterate this. It all seems to depend on the situation. The Bahai official stand is that the Quran is Gods word, but even that some Bahai's will dump under a bus when it comes to a situation.

So with this platform, one must try to understand the Bahai claim that the Quran is speaking about the Bible when it says "Gospel".

So since the Bahai's claim the Quran is Gods revelation, they should believe everything the Quran says. It says Jesus was a Rasoolullah, a messenger of God. The Quran says "I taught you the Torah and the Gospel" to Jesus. So the Bahai's claim, the Gospel is either the whole of the New Testament, or it is the "four Gospels".

One Question to the Bahai's: So since the Bahai claim is that the Quran is speaking about the NT, and the Quran says "Muhammed was written in the Gospel", which part of the New Testament is speaking about Muhammed?

Since you claim the Quran is Gods revelation, it says Muhammed is prophesied or spoken of in the Gospel, you have to believe it. Thus, since you believe it, which verse or verses of the "Gospel" which according to Bahai's is either the NT or the "4 gospels", speaks of Muhammed?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Is this going to be another Baha'i bashing thread?

 

[KerimF]

Since you claim the Quran is Gods revelation, it says Muhammed is prophesied or spoken of in the Gospel, you have to believe it. Thus, since you believe it, which verse or verses of the "Gospel" which according to Bahai's is either the NT or the "4 gospels", speaks of Muhammed?

I guess the answer is what my Muslim friends say:
"It is the verse {John 14:26}"

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

I can't blame them because even most Christians around the world have no clear idea yet on the nature and the role of the Holy Spirit in the image of God, as revealed by Jesus.

 

[firedragon]

Is this going to be an other Baha'i bashing thread?

Is this another 'derailment tactic'?

 

[firedragon]

I guess the answer is what my Muslim friends say:
"It is the verse {John 14:26}"

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

I can't blame them because even most Christians around the world have no clear idea yet on the nature and the role of the Holy Spirit in the image of God, as revealed by Jesus.

Wont do, because Bahai's already have claimed that this refers to Bahaullah.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Is this another 'derailment tactic'?

No, it was a question

 

[KerimF]

Wont do, because Bahai's already have claimed that this refers to Bahaullah.

I didn't know this, thank you.

But I am sure that the Muslims around me are supposed to believe that Jesus meant by 'the Comforter' their 'Muhammad'.
So I wonder now if Bahaullah is seen as another messenger of God (I mean, of Allah)!

 

[Brian2]

This thread is purely based on Bahai claims. Not Muslim claims, not Christian claims, or what anyone else claims. I say this upfront because some argument about what Muslims claim or what Christians claim may enter this thread which is every day occurrence. So again, this thread is purely about "WHAT BAHAI"S CLAIM". NOT what OTHERS CLAIM. I hope that is clear enough.

The Bahai's claim they believe The New Testament is the same as the Quran and is Gods revelation. Well, some Bahai's may not say this, and some may reiterate this. It all seems to depend on the situation. The Bahai official stand is that the Quran is Gods word, but even that some Bahai's will dump under a bus when it comes to a situation.

So with this platform, one must try to understand the Bahai claim that the Quran is speaking about the Bible when it says "Gospel".

So since the Bahai's claim the Quran is Gods revelation, they should believe everything the Quran says. It says Jesus was a Rasoolullah, a messenger of God. The Quran says "I taught you the Torah and the Gospel" to Jesus. So the Bahai's claim, the Gospel is either the whole of the New Testament, or it is the "four Gospels".

One Question to the Bahai's: So since the Bahai claim is that the Quran is speaking about the NT, and the Quran says "Muhammed was written in the Gospel", which part of the New Testament is speaking about Muhammed?

Since you claim the Quran is Gods revelation, it says Muhammed is prophesied or spoken of in the Gospel, you have to believe it. Thus, since you believe it, which verse or verses of the "Gospel" which according to Bahai's is either the NT or the "4 gospels", speaks of Muhammed?

The Baha'is say that Baha'u'llah is the Spirit of Truth and Paraclete in John 14, 15 and 16 and I think Muslims say that Muhammad is the Paraclete and Spirit of Truth also in the same chapters and the prophet in John 1:21.

From this site I got the following quote: Did Jesus Predict Muhammad? A Biblical Portal Between Christianity and Islam | HuffPost
>>>In Jesus’ farewell discourse in the Gospel of John (chapters 14 to 16), Jesus speaks about the coming of the “Spirit of Truth” or “Advocate” (in Greek, parakletos). For centuries Muslim interpreters have seen Muhammad as this “Advocate,” based on Qur’an 61:6, a verse in which Jesus predicts the coming of a future prophet named Ahmad: “O Children of Israel! Truly I am the Messenger of God unto you, confirming that which came before me in the Torah and bearing glad tidings of a Messenger to come after me whose name is Ahmad” (61:6, The Study Quran). Ahmad, which is another name for Muhammad, is very close etymologically to the Greek word, parakletos, so it is likely that the Qur’an is claiming that Jesus’ farewell discourse in the Gospel of John predicts Muhammad. The major objection to applying these predictions to Muhammad or any other prophet is that Christians normally read them as part and parcel of Jesus’ promise of the gift of the Holy Spirit. <<<

But you may have seen these things also. Best you wait for a Baha'i to give an answer.

 

[firedragon]

No, it was a question

Well, that's not relevant to the topic. Read the OP, and ask a question relevant to the topic.

Thanks.

 

[firedragon]

I didn't know this, thank you.

But I am sure that the Muslims around me are supposed to believe that Jesus meant by 'the Comforter' their 'Muhammad'.
So I wonder now if Bahaullah is seen as another messenger of God (I mean, of Allah)!

Bahaullah is seen by the Bahai's as a manifestation of God, and the fulfilment of the comforter or parakleetus in the Gospel of John, as well as many many other prophecies, not only in the Bible but almost all the religions you could think of.

Nevertheless let me reiterate that I have said in the Op that this topic is purely about what Bahai's believe, not about what Muslims believe. Hope you understand. If you like I can open a whole new thread about what muslims believe.

 

[Brian2]

Is this another 'derailment tactic'?

I'm pretty sure that is fine in Baha'i eyes. All the Messengers are the same Christ Spirit to them and so I imagine both Muhammad and Baha'u'llah can be the Paraclete and Spirit of Truth to them.
A Baha'i has told me that the Spirit of Truth/Paraclete is said to speak to the believers and remind them of all that Jesus said and that the Holy Spirit cannot do that, so the Paraclete/Spirit of Truth cannot be the Holy Spirit.
This of course contradicts the Gospel which says that the Paraclete and Spirit of Truth are the Holy Spirit and Jesus is just saying what the Holy Spirit would do.

 

[firedragon]

The Baha'is say that Baha'u'llah is the Spirit of Truth and Paraclete in John 14, 15 and 16 and I think Muslims say that Muhammad is the Paraclete and Spirit of Truth also in the same chapters and the prophet in John 1:21.

From this site I got the following quote: Did Jesus Predict Muhammad? A Biblical Portal Between Christianity and Islam | HuffPost
>>>In Jesus’ farewell discourse in the Gospel of John (chapters 14 to 16), Jesus speaks about the coming of the “Spirit of Truth” or “Advocate” (in Greek, parakletos). For centuries Muslim interpreters have seen Muhammad as this “Advocate,” based on Qur’an 61:6, a verse in which Jesus predicts the coming of a future prophet named Ahmad: “O Children of Israel! Truly I am the Messenger of God unto you, confirming that which came before me in the Torah and bearing glad tidings of a Messenger to come after me whose name is Ahmad” (61:6, The Study Quran). Ahmad, which is another name for Muhammad, is very close etymologically to the Greek word, parakletos, so it is likely that the Qur’an is claiming that Jesus’ farewell discourse in the Gospel of John predicts Muhammad. The major objection to applying these predictions to Muhammad or any other prophet is that Christians normally read them as part and parcel of Jesus’ promise of the gift of the Holy Spirit. <<<

But you may have seen these things also. Best you wait for a Baha'i to give an answer.

Yes. The Bahai's claim that the Parakleetus is Bahaullah. This is not just a followup claim or a latter developed claim but instead, it is a claim Bahaullah himself claimed to be. Not like this so called Muslim belief which is a developed apologetic, not what the Quran itself says. Hope you understand the difference.

Bahaullah himself claims he is the fulfilment of the Parakleetus in John.

 

[firedragon]

I'm pretty sure that is fine in Baha'i eyes. All the Messengers are the same Christ Spirit to them and so I imagine both Muhammad and Baha'u'llah can be the Paraclete and Spirit of Truth to them.
A Baha'i has told me that the Spirit of Truth/Paraclete is said to speak to the believers and remind them of all that Jesus said and that the Holy Spirit cannot do that, so the Paraclete/Spirit of Truth cannot be the Holy Spirit.
This of course contradicts the Gospel which says that the Paraclete and Spirit of Truth are the Holy Spirit and Jesus is just saying what the Holy Spirit would do.

Thats not relevant to the topic.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This thread is purely based on Bahai claims. Not Muslim claims, not Christian claims, or what anyone else claims. I say this upfront because some argument about what Muslims claim or what Christians claim may enter this thread which is every day occurrence. So again, this thread is purely about "WHAT BAHAI"S CLAIM". NOT what OTHERS CLAIM. I hope that is clear enough.

The Bahai's claim they believe The New Testament is the same as the Quran and is Gods revelation. Well, some Bahai's may not say this, and some may reiterate this. It all seems to depend on the situation. The Bahai official stand is that the Quran is Gods word, but even that some Bahai's will dump under a bus when it comes to a situation.

So with this platform, one must try to understand the Bahai claim that the Quran is speaking about the Bible when it says "Gospel".

So since the Bahai's claim the Quran is Gods revelation, they should believe everything the Quran says. It says Jesus was a Rasoolullah, a messenger of God. The Quran says "I taught you the Torah and the Gospel" to Jesus. So the Bahai's claim, the Gospel is either the whole of the New Testament, or it is the "four Gospels".

One Question to the Bahai's: So since the Bahai claim is that the Quran is speaking about the NT, and the Quran says "Muhammed was written in the Gospel", which part of the New Testament is speaking about Muhammed?

Since you claim the Quran is Gods revelation, it says Muhammed is prophesied or spoken of in the Gospel, you have to believe it. Thus, since you believe it, which verse or verses of the "Gospel" which according to Bahai's is either the NT or the "4 gospels", speaks of Muhammed?

No, Bahais don't believe New Testament is the same as the Quran. But They believe New Testament is legitimate and that, the Quran confirms the Book which is with People of the Book.

 

[firedragon]

No, Bahais don't believe New Testament is the same as the Quran. But They believe New Testament is legitimate and that, the Quran confirms the Book which is with People of the Book.

Yeah. Thats not an answer to the question of course.

 

[KerimF]

By the way, the Qura'an main teaching contradicts clearly Jesus message.
At the beginning, Mohammad says, while referring to Allah, something like:

I (Allah) didn't create you but to worship me.

On the other hand, the most important advice of Jesus (known in English as the 1st commandment) is about loving God to no limit, not worshiping God; a huge difference, speaking practically.

 

[KerimF]

Till a Bahai' friend comes and joins us here, I wish I know if Bahaullah also told his followers that Allah created humans to worship Him as Muhammad of Islam did.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

.

So since the Bahai's claim the Quran is Gods revelation, they should believe everything the Quran says. It says Jesus was a Rasoolullah, a messenger of God. The Quran says "I taught you the Torah and the Gospel" to Jesus. So the Bahai's claim, the Gospel is either the whole of the New Testament, or it is the "four Gospels".

In my view, the Quran uses the Term "Gospel" for two different intentions.
In another words, the word Gospel is Quran has two different meanings.

One meaning is the Gospel is the name of the Revelation that Jesus received from God. In this sense it is not name of any physically written Book.

In some other verses, the term Gospel is name of the Book which is with Christians, that is the NT.


This is also consistent with Bahai Faith as well.

for example, Aqdas, is the name of One of the Books of Bahaullah, but at the same time, it is the name of the complete revelation of Bahaullah which consist of all Books of Bahaullah.
likewise, Bayan, is the name of one the many Books written by the Bab. But at the same time, it is the name of the revelation of the Bab, which includes every word that the Bab ever said.

I hope Bahai view is clear.

One Question to the Bahai's: So since the Bahai claim is that the Quran is speaking about the NT, and the Quran says "Muhammed was written in the Gospel", which part of the New Testament is speaking about Muhammed?

On a letter written of behalf of Shoghi Effendi:

"References in the Bible to 'Mt. Paran' and 'Paraclete' refer to Muhammad's Revelation: Deuteronomy 33:2, Genesis 21:21, Numbers 12:16, Numbers 13:3. Genesis 17:20 refers to the twelve Imáms and in the Revelation of St. John, chapter 11, where it mentions two witnesses, it refers to Muhammad and 'Alí.

"The figures 1290 date from the declaration of Muhammad, ten years before His flight to Medina."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to the National Spiritual Assembly of Australia and New Zealand, December 26, 1941)

Since you claim the Quran is Gods revelation, it says Muhammed is prophesied or spoken of in the Gospel, you have to believe it. Thus, since you believe it, which verse or verses of the "Gospel" which according to Bahai's is either the NT or the "4 gospels", speaks of Muhammed?

Same as above.

 

[firedragon]

In my view, the Quran uses the Term "Gospel" for two different intentions.
In another words, the word Gospel is Quran has two different meanings.

One meaning is the Gospel is the name of the Revelation that Jesus received from God. In this sense it is not name of any physically written Book.

In some other verses, the term Gospel is name of the Book which is with Christians, that is the NT.


This is also consistent with Bahai Faith as well.

for example, Aqdas, is the name of One of the Books of Bahaullah, but at the same time, it is the name of the complete revelation of Bahaullah which consist of all Books of Bahaullah.
likewise, Bayan, is the name of one the many Books written by the Bab. But at the same time, it is the name of the revelation of the Bab, which includes every word that the Bab ever said.

I hope Bahai view is clear.




On a letter written of behalf of Shoghi Effendi:

"References in the Bible to 'Mt. Paran' and 'Paraclete' refer to Muhammad's Revelation: Deuteronomy 33:2, Genesis 21:21, Numbers 12:16, Numbers 13:3. Genesis 17:20 refers to the twelve Imáms and in the Revelation of St. John, chapter 11, where it mentions two witnesses, it refers to Muhammad and 'Alí.

"The figures 1290 date from the declaration of Muhammad, ten years before His flight to Medina."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to the National Spiritual Assembly of Australia and New Zealand, December 26, 1941)



Same as above.

It still doesnt answer the question.

 

[KerimF]

May I ask what we will learn from hearing an answer, positive or negative?