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Featured Baha'is promoting ideas and interests contrary to those of their supreme council

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Jim, Sep 26, 2018.

  1. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    I came upon this today and is worth sharing here;

    "...Individual interpretations based on a person's understanding of the teachings constitute the fruit of man's rational power and may well contribute to a more complete understanding of the Faith. Such views, however, lack authority. The believers are, therefore, free to accept or disregard them. Further, the manner in which an individual presents his interpretation is important. For example, he must at no time deny or contend with the authoritative interpretation, but rather offer his idea as a contribution to knowledge, making it clear that his views are merely his own.

    With loving Bahá’í greetings,
    DEPARTMENT OF THE SECRETARIAT

    This is the full letter - MUHJ86-01/17/Interpretations of Sacred Writings - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith

    Regards Tony
     
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  2. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

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    @adrian009 I see that it’s unfair of me to single you out for this, out of all the Baha’is and other people who do the same thing. Just one drop in a bucket, in psychological damage to one stigmatized population, which in itself is a drop in the bucket of stigmatized people in general, which in turn is not the worst oppression that’s going on in the world. The change in your choice of words that I’d like to discuss might not make any difference at all in any of that.

    If we had that discussion, it would just be to help me explore a possibility I see for fruitful and beneficial discussions between me and Baha’is who are piling up dirt in the path of my plow.
     
    #102 Jim, Sep 29, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2018
  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    This is good information to have but we still have to interpret the authoritative interpretations, so that does not solve all our problems. :oops: In fact, I do not see how we are any further down the road than if we only had what Baha'u'llah wrote, except that we have more Writings. In some cases, it helps to have the interpretations of Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi, but in some cases I think it can get us further from what Baha'u'llah wrote and intended to mean. For example, what does this letter from Shoghi Effendi mean?

    No man can "obtain everlasting life" in the full sense of the term, except through acknowledging the Manifestation of God, in this age, Bahá’u’lláh. If he doesn't do it in this world he will have a chance to progress in the next one. (19 March 1946)

    Does it mean that unless Christians and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists and Atheists etc. recognize Baha'u'llah they will be spiritually dead? Does it mean that it does not matter if they recognize Baha'u'llah in this life, because they can do so in the afterlife? What does it mean to have a chance? Sorry but there are too many loose ends for me. :( I suppose different Baha'is are going to have different ideas about what that letter means. :rolleyes: I guess that is okay and as long as we do not fight about it we can learn from each other. :)
     
  4. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "Bahais make no distinction between God, and Bahaullah" Unquote.

    One is just wrong here. We get from our Bahai friend adrian009 in post #199 . in the thread "Can we prove or disprove the claims of any Messenger of God?" has told us about Bahaullah:
    "He never claimed God-head."
    So, please, let us know which one of our two friends (adrian009 ,InvestigateTruth) is right, please.

    Regards
     
  5. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Bahaullah never claimed to be the incarnation of God. He claimed to be Manifestation of God.
    Bahaullah claimed He has fulfilled the Promise of Quran, which is Meeting with Lord. He claimed His manifestation is 'the Father who has come', and Lord of the Host which are promised in Bible.

    All Bahai's agree that these prophecies are fulfilled by Bahaullah, including @adrian009
     
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  6. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    I don't see anything relevant in this post to discuss.
     
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  7. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    Yes that is correct. The 'Primal Will', 'the I AM', The 'Most Great Spirit' is the Cause and this is the Spirit in the Messengers of G_d that radiates to the world as the Holy Spirit.

    G-d is unknowable, accept through these Messengers.

    Know that, speaking generally, there are five divisions of the spirit.
    1. First the vegetable spirit,
    2. After this is the animal spirit, then
    3. The human spirit may be likened to the bounty of the sun shining on a mirror.... this, the spirit of man has two aspects: one divine, one satanic—that is to say, it is capable of the utmost perfection, or it is capable of the utmost imperfection. If it acquires virtues, it is the most noble of the existing beings; and if it acquires vices, it becomes the most degraded existence.
    4. The fourth degree of spirit is the heavenly spirit; it is the spirit of faith and the bounty of God; it comes from the breath of the Holy Spirit, and by the divine power it becomes the cause of eternal life. It is the power which makes the earthly man heavenly, and the imperfect man perfect. It makes the impure to be pure, the silent eloquent; it purifies and sanctifies those made captive by carnal desires; it makes the ignorant wise.
    5. The fifth spirit is the Holy Spirit. This Holy Spirit is the mediator between God and His creatures. It is like a mirror facing the sun. As the pure mirror receives light from the sun and transmits this bounty to others, so the Holy Spirit is the mediator of the Holy Light from the Sun of Reality, which it gives to the sanctified realities. It is adorned with all the divine perfections. Every time it appears, the world is renewed, and a new cycle is founded.
    Regards Tony
     
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  8. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "Like the high level people that became Covenant Breakers. Who would have thought? Who would have known? Until those people broke away and tried to take power? But, were some of those people even in elected positions or were they appointed by Baha'i leadership, like even Abdu'l Baha or Shoghi Effendi?"Unquote.

    I don't get one exactly.
    Please elaborate one's point. Which Bahai leadership appointed Abdu'l Baha or Shoghi Effendi and how, please?

    Regards
     
  9. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

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    @InvestigateTruth I disagree with saying that Baha'is make no distinction between God, and Baha'u'llah. I know some Baha'is who do, and some who don't.
     
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  10. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    I didn't mean any one who has a Bahai membership. I meant a perfect Baha'i, like Abdulbaha would not make any distinction between Bahaullah and God. Do you think Abdulbaha made any distinction between God and Bahaullah? Did not Abdulbaha believe who ever has seen Bahaullah, has seen God?
     
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  11. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    That is where we can offer our own thoughts, the more we put a mind based in unity to the issue, the more the door opens.

    Remember knowledge of God is a state of Nearness or Remoteness.

    I would say that recognition of all Gods Manifestations is applicable to this passage and in this age it is Baha'u'llah that shows us they are all One. If we fail to do this in this life, it seems that the Forgiveness, Bounty and Mercy of God does extend across all the worlds of God and God can gift this knowledge when and where God so chooses to do so. But we also know God is Justice, so justice tells us there is reward and punishment.

    This is why we never look upon another human in a superior light, why we never think we have exclusive access to the Truth. It is always a gift from God. In saying that, Baha'u'llah says there is a trigger where some deed or action done has made the person receptive to the Faith.

    Thought from you?

    Regards Tony
     
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  12. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    This has been the most complex argument across all time.

    The way I currently see it is that both views are sound as long as we do not use it as a point of divisive argument, then we would be both wrong.

    All Prophecy pointing to God being with His people in the last days, is a reference to Baha'u'llah. The Greatest Names used in the Bible and all Holy Books are Titles of Baha'u'llah. Thus Baha'u'llah is the God promised in all those scriptures.

    Baha'u'llah has explained how this works now in great detail and thus we can now see how Baha'u'llah can be called God and at the same time know that Baha'u'llah is not God. Exactly as the Bible told us.

    Regards Tony
     
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  13. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    It is for this that it was fallible of Mirza Hussein Ali Nouri to appoint Abdul Baha and Shoghi Effendi to interpret the meanings of his writings.
    They could make as many or twice the number of mistakes as could make Mirza Hussein Ali Nouri, himself alone. Right, please?

    Regards
    _______________
    #51 #54
     
  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Baha'u'llah was infallible.
     
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  15. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "Yes that is correct. The 'Primal Will', 'the I AM', The 'Most Great Spirit' is the Cause and this is the Spirit in the Messengers of G_d that radiates to the world as the Holy Spirit."Unquote.

    So, here again Mirza Hussein Ali Nouri makes a mistake and becomes fallible. It was OK to consider him among Messengers of G_d, had he:

    • been appointed by G-d
    • not brought a new religion.
    • accepted Quran as the Law
    • not claimed a god-head
    • followed the Sunnah of Muhammad.
    But he was a fallible human being and made all these mistakes. Sorry for him really, please.

    Regards

     
  16. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Hi @Jim
    Sorry to hear you are unable or unwilling to state clearly what the problem is you have with me.

    Let’s go back to your OP

    I certainly believe if someone calls themselves a Baha’i it is wrong to consciously and deliberately promote teachings that are contrary to the Baha’i writings.


    What is important to the success of the Baha’i Faith is how Baha’i Institutions and Baha’is as individuals respond to dissent within its ranks.
     
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  17. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Please quote from Quran- the Narration/Book, the perfect Book that mentions the things with clarity , if correctly/righteously understood, clears all the doubts.

    Regards
    ______________
    [2:3]
    This is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the righteous,
    The Holy Quran - Chapter: 2: Al-Baqarah
     
  18. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

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    @adrian009 I’m not going to try to have any discussion with you, as long as it looks to me like you think I’m lying about my views, motives and intentions.
     
  19. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Did Abdu'l-Baha say that whoever has seen Baha'u'llah has seen God?

    You need to put this in some kind of context. If there was no distinction between Baha'u'llah and God, that would mean that Baha'u'llah was God.

    Baha’u’llah disclaimed being God:

    “Certain ones among you have said: “He it is Who hath laid claim to be God.” By God! This is a gross calumny. I am but a servant of God Who hath believed in Him and in His signs, and in His Prophets and in His angels. My tongue, and My heart, and My inner and My outer being testify that there is no God but Him, that all others have been created by His behest, and been fashioned through the operation of His Will. There is none other God but Him, the Creator, the Raiser from the dead, the Quickener, the Slayer. I am He that telleth abroad the favors with which God hath, through His bounty, favored Me.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 228

    The Only Sense in which Baha’u’llah was God is that He manifested the Attributes and Names of God. He was the Voice of God, but He was not God.

    “Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world....... And were any of them to voice the utterance, “I am the Messenger of God,” He, also, speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth..........For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the “Beginning” and the “End,” the “First” and the “Last,” the “Seen” and the “Hidden”—all of which pertain to Him Who is the Innermost Spirit of Spirits and Eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say, “We are the Servants of God,” this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of Being were deep immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of Divine mysteries, they claimed their utterances to be the Voice of Divinity, the Call of God Himself.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 54-55

    Please note that Baha’u’llah said that God is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above all created things. Nevertheless, the Will of Baha’u’llah was identical to the Will of God.

    “Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures. This is the true meaning of Divine unity. He Who is the Eternal Truth is the one Power Who exerciseth undisputed sovereignty over the world of being, Whose image is reflected in the mirror of the entire creation. All existence is dependent upon Him, and from Him is derived the source of the sustenance of all things. This is what is meant by Divine unity; this is its fundamental principle...

    The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167

    However, Baha’u’llah made it abundantly clear that God cannot incarnate His Essence and reveal it to man.

    “Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49
     
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  20. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Bahaullah never claimed to be God, because He was not incarnation of God, but He claimed to be God, because God manifested Himself in Him.
     
    #120 InvestigateTruth, Sep 29, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2018
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