Baha'is promoting ideas and interests contrary to those of their supreme council

[oldbadger]

Why do you think people don't have the right to elect the same person again?

O.M.G.!!!
Are you saying that the members of the Universal House of Justice can be re-elected every time?

That's very dangerous, isn't it? Not now, but if there was ever a Bahai World Order then it most certainly could be.

 

[oldbadger]

They are Covenant-breakers, not Baha'is.
Nobody who breaks the Covenant was EVER considered a Baha'i by Baha'u'llah.

Hi.......
That could be said about Jesus, but 3000+ Creeds and Churches later, they ALL believe that they are true Christians.

All it takes is for disagreements in opinions about what a passage means, or translations, and you've got division.

 

[Jim]

@adrian009 I’ve already told you what I would need to see, before I would say any more about the problems you’re creating for me.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

O.M.G.!!!
Are you saying that the members of the Universal House of Justice can be re-elected every time?

That's very dangerous, isn't it?

No, not in any way given the Baha'i electoral process.

You are free to say how it could be in any way dangerous.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hi.......
That could be said about Jesus, but 3000+ Creeds and Churches later, they ALL believe that they are true Christians.

All it takes is for disagreements in opinions about what a passage means, or translations, and you've got division.

In this day you will see no lasting growth of any attempt at covenant breaking.

It is likened like a branch cut from a tree and cast onto barren ground. It may survive for a little while, it might even show a bit of growth. But death is inevitable.

Regards Tony

 

[Jim]

@adrian009 I’m not saying that you’re wrong to despise me the way you do. You might have good reasons for it. It just took me by surprise.

 

[Dawnofhope]

@adrian009 I’ve already told you what I would need to see, before I would say any more about the problems you’re creating for me.

The internet is a strange place sometimes. Misunderstandings can easily arise.

You have started a thread about promoting ideas and interests contrary to the Universal House of Justice.

It’s clear from this post...

Baha'is promoting ideas and interests contrary to those of their supreme council

...you wanted to discuss this thread with specific Baha’is myself included.

That was your intention with starting this thread and now you have my attention.

My first steps at engaging in any discussion of this nature is to ensure I have understood what is being conveyed. I’m just seeking clarification, that’s all.

It does not matter to me how you understand the writings. I can live with differences of opinions between Baha’is and anyone else. What does matter is that I’m clear about what you believe. If we are not clear about each other’s beliefs then it’s makes it easier to have misunderstandings.

As I see it you have beliefs that contradict central tenets of the Baha’i Faith. I could be wrong of course. Its just the way I’m seeing it but I don’t think I’m the only one.

 

[Jim]

@adrian009 Maybe you can understand it if I put it this way: As you’re ploughing merrily along, not a care in the world, one of your neighbors comes and tells you that in your ploughing, you’re pushing some earth into their field. Would your response to that be “It isn’t a problem,” and then “No offense intended so no reason to take any”?

I’ve told you what to do if you want any response from me to anything you’re saying.

 

[Dawnofhope]

@adrian009 I’m not saying that you’re wrong to despise me the way you do. You might have good reasons for it. It just took me by surprise.

To be clear you seem like a decent and reasonable person. I like you and do not despise you or hold any ill feelings at all.

 

[Dawnofhope]

@adrian009 Maybe you can understand it if I put it this way: As you’re ploughing merrily along, not a care in the world, one of your neighbors comes and tells you that in your ploughing, you’re pushing some earth into their field. Would your response to that be “It isn’t a problem,” and then “No offense intended so no reason to take any”?

I’ve told you what to do if you want any response from me to anything you’re saying.

So what have I said or done that’s offended you?

 

[oldbadger]

No, not in any way given the Baha'i electoral process.

You are free to say how it could be in any way dangerous.

Regards Tony

Tony, I don't think that I ever heard for sure about how the UHJ is installed, so I just responded to what I read.

I seem to remember that each country elected delegates to vote for the UHJ seats.

Where a body has sat for a very long time it can definitely become 'wrong', the only example that I can think of being the US President's fixed two term max. At this time that seems to be a very good idea!

 

[Dawnofhope]

Tony, I don't think that I ever heard for sure about how the UHJ is installed, so I just responded to what I read.

I seem to remember that each country elected delegates to vote for the UHJ seats.

Where a body has sat for a very long time it can definitely become 'wrong', the only example that I can think of being the US President's fixed two term max. At this time that seems to be a very good idea!

A better analogy would be with a parliamentary body where members may serve many years for much longer periods.

There’s no leader of the Baha’i Faith. Just elected institutions. The members that serve those institutions have no status beyond any other community members. Only the institutions have authority.

 

[oldbadger]

In this day you will see no lasting growth of any attempt at covenant breaking.

I won't be looking....... but CBs seen to have increased over the decades; maybe that seems so because of the explosion in human communications over the last 30 years.

It is likened like a branch cut from a tree and cast onto barren ground. It may survive for a little while, it might even show a bit of growth. But death is inevitable.

Regards Tony

That's nice prose, purrs into the ear.......
But so does.....
'As cherry blossom attracts the faithful to pollinate anew, their seed blowing on the winds of truth to fall on new ground, springing up in divine endeavour.'

Rhetoric doesn't win discussions.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony, I don't think that I ever heard for sure about how the UHJ is installed, so I just responded to what I read.

I seem to remember that each country elected delegates to vote for the UHJ seats.

Where a body has sat for a very long time it can definitely become 'wrong', the only example that I can think of being the US President's fixed two term max. At this time that seems to be a very good idea!

The Universal House of Justice is elected every 5 years by secret ballot from the delegates from all National Spiritual Assemblies.

There is no canvasing for votes and it is based on Spiritual principles mindful of all the spiritual and material qualifications of the persons you will cast your vote for.

I have read and heard from many delegates that this is an amazing experience.

Thus it is not unusual, that people that have these qualities, can be elected for consecutive terms and many have been. It has been that some members due to personal reasons have to retire.

I will meet most of them all in December on my Pilgrimage, as they do address each pilgrimage group as a whole and sometimes an individual will give a talk.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

A better analogy would be with a parliamentary body where members may serve many years for much longer periods.

There’s no leader of the Baha’i Faith. Just elected institutions. The members that serve those institutions have no status beyond any other community members. Only the institutions have authority.

Sure........ get your point about that, which could refer to our UK Parliament. Some PMs have seemed as if they would 'go on' for ever. (The Pitts, Thatcher). But of course they didn't.

I remember a line in that film 'The Queen' where the Queen is explaining to a re-elected and 'comfortable' Tony Blair...... 'Oh your time will come, quite suddenly and without warning. You can be sure of that.'

Our changes here are driven by our very volatile public opinions.

 

[oldbadger]

The Universal House of Justice is elected every 5 years by secret ballot from the delegates from all National Spiritual Assemblies.

There is no canvasing for votes and it is based on Spiritual principles mindful of all the spiritual and material qualifications of the persons you will cast your vote for.

I have read and heard from many delegates that this is an amazing experience.

Thus it is not unusual, that people that have these qualities, can be elected for consecutive terms and many have been. It has been that some members due to personal reasons have to retire.

I will meet most of them all in December on my Pilgrimage, as they do address each pilgrimage group as a whole and sometimes an individual will give a talk.

Regards Tony

Thanks for the info........
Well..... I'll bet that you are looking forward to this December. Blink and it'll be here.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Rhetoric doesn't win discussions.

I am not wanting to win any discussion. I just wish to supply you with the correct information on the Baha'i Faith and how a Baha'i does embrace that Faith.

Of course you are free to pursue any of what is offered, in any way you choose to or not to.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thanks for the info........
Well..... I'll bet that you are looking forward to this December. Blink and it'll be here.

Oh yes, both the wife and I. Her first time and it is a very daunting trip.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Sure........ get your point about that, which could refer to our UK Parliament. Some PMs have seemed as if they would 'go on' for ever. (The Pitts, Thatcher). But of course they didn't.

I remember a line in that film 'The Queen' where the Queen is explaining to a re-elected and 'comfortable' Tony Blair...... 'Oh your time will come, quite suddenly and without warning. You can be sure of that.'

Our changes here are driven by our very volatile public opinions.

Often members of parliament go on for years past their used by date when they should have retired.

Most Universal House of Justice members retire. They recognise they no longer have the capacity for the arduous resonsibilities their membership on the Universal House of Justice requires. One of their roles is giving talks to pilgrims during their nine day pilgrimmage to Haifa/Akka. It soon becomes apparent to themselves and others if they no longer have the capacity to serve.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Hi @Jim
I just had a thought. I wondered if it was this post that offended you?

The Universal House of Justice simply provides guidance about how to apply Baha’i Teachings in a modern setting based on the clear interpretations of the Guardian. So it’s not just the Universal House of Justice you disagree with but the guardian too. Do you think Shoghi Effendi was prejudiced against gays?

So in that case the disagreement would be with Abdul-Baha would it not? Do you think Abdul-Baha was sexist for interpretating the Kitab-I-Aqdas to mean no women on the Universal House of Justice?

So there is a responsibility to promote ideas and interests contrary to what the Baha’i writings and the Universal Hose of Justice says because the Baha’i Faith promotes gender inequality and discrimination against gays?

Just wanting to clarify, that’s all.

Perhaps I was too direct and I apologise if I offended you. Once again no offence was intended.

I just wanted to say I would understand if you thought of Shoghi Effendi as having attitudes towards homosexuality that reflected his Persian upbringing during the early 20th century. That would explain his very clear comments in regards homosexual behaviour that you disagree with.

Abdu'l-Baha's views may have reflected the cultural norms of the time. That could be why he interpreted Baha'u'llahs comments about men on the Houses of Justice as being just males. That would be a sensible explanation as to why the Baha'i Faith have laws in regards homosexuality and membership of the House of Justice you don't agree with. You don't agree with those laws and you sincerely believe it is best to promote a more inclusive understanding, even if it means promoting ideas and interests contrary to the Supreme Council.

Is that it? Maybe I'm wrong. You tell me if you feel so inclined. I understand if you don't want to talk to me for a while. I'm an easy going guy despite my traditional understanding on the Covenant.