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Baha'i Vs Christ

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
It's your choice Badger of course and true... Baha'is do not place much confidence in "...spiritualism and mediums..."

As to "spiritual healing I will share some excerpts from Baha'i sources:

"There are two ways of healing sickness, material means and spiritual means. The first is by the use of remedies, of medicines; the second consists in praying to God and in turning to Him. Both means should be used and practiced.
Illness caused by physical accident should be treated with medical remedies; those which are due to spiritual causes disappear through spiritual means. Thus an illness caused by affliction, fear, nervous impressions, will be healed by spiritual rather than by physical treatment. Hence, both kinds of remedies should be considered. Moreover, they are not contradictory, and thou shouldst accept the physical remedies as coming from the mercy and favor of God, who hath revealed and made manifest medical science so that His servants may profit from this kind of treatment also. Thou shouldst give equal attention to spiritual treatments, for they produce marvelous effects."


(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 375)

"...in this new century the attainment of science, arts and belles lettres, whether divine or worldly, material or spiritual, is a matter which is acceptable before God and a duty which is incumbent upon us to accomplish. Therefore, never deny the spiritual things to the material, rather both are incumbent upon thee."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 376)

"A physician is needed to prescribe. Through his skill the principles of the book are correctly and effectively applied until the patient is restored to health. Christ was a heavenly Physician. He brought spiritual health and healing into the world. Bahá'u'lláh is, likewise, a divine Physician. He has revealed prescriptions for removing disease from the body politic and has remedied human conditions by spiritual power."

(Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 249)

There are over two hundred sixty references to "spiritual healing" that I see on the "Ocean" search engine and the above are only a few of them.

Hello arthra, I have not read your posts in many months.

I have read your selections, above, on healing. Please could I ask, did Bahauallah write about spiritual healing, or spirits, and could you possibly show a couple of selections from his writings?

All the best,
OB
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
Baha'is and the mainstream Christians both believe in the Bible, but they have different interpretations of the Holy Book.
Which makes me wonder, how would you as a Bahai follower like it if some other ideology would give a different interpretation of the Bahai scriptures than the Bahai followers themselves gave/give to those scriptures?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Which makes me wonder, how would you as a Bahai follower like it if some other ideology would give a different interpretation of the Bahai scriptures than the Bahai followers themselves gave/give to those scriptures?

If another person claims a Message from God and starts to discuss Baha'i Scriptures, then we also have a choice. This would only be considered after a full 1000 years as Baha'u'llah gave us a period.of grace about God Claimants;

“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God,” is the express warning uttered in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, “ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying imposter. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will no doubt forgive him. If, however, he persists in his error, God will assuredly send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible indeed is God in punishing!” “Whosoever,” He adds as a further emphasis, “interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things.” “Should a man appear,” is yet another conclusive statement, “ere the lapse of a full thousand years—each year consisting of twelve months according to the Qur’án, and of nineteen months of nineteen days each, according to the Bayán—and if such a man reveal to your eyes all the signs of God, unhesitatingly reject him!”

If a person of another Faith attempts to use the Baha'i writings to dissprove Baha'ullah, then what was given by Baha'u'llah will stand up by its own merit, their arguments will be proven false by their own scriptures.

Thus is not followers deciding, this is the teachings of Baha'u'llah. Baha'ullah has said He is the Promised One of ALL past Scriptures.

Regards Tony
 

arthra

Baha'i
Hello arthra, I have not read your posts in many months. I have read your selections, above, on healing. Please could I ask, did Bahauallah write about spiritual healing, or spirits, and could you possibly show a couple of selections from his writings? All the best, OB

Yes Baha'u'llah revealed verses on "spiritual healing":

"The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy."

~ Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 212

"That which hath streamed forth from the Most Exalted Pen is . . . the sovereign remedy for every disease, could they but comprehend and perceive it."

~ Baha’u’llah, Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 73

"The Healing Prayers revealed by Bahá'u'lláh can be effective even though used by non-believers. But their effectiveness is of course greater in the case of those who fully accept the Revelation."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, March 19, 1939: Bahá'í News, No. 134. March 1940. p. 2)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 460)

What follows is the Long Healing Prayer revealed by Baha'u'llah:

 
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InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Which makes me wonder, how would you as a Bahai follower like it if some other ideology would give a different interpretation of the Bahai scriptures than the Bahai followers themselves gave/give to those scriptures?
In fact, I remember reading from some Writings by Shoghi Effendi who said, in the Writings of Bahaullah, there are also hidden meanings, which is concealed from the eyes of us. When the next Manifestation comes, He will reveal their true and inner interpretations.
This is what every time God manifested himself did. When Jesus came, He interpreted the verses of the Old Testament in ways, different from the Jews.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Which makes me wonder, how would you as a Bahai follower like it if some other ideology would give a different interpretation of the Bahai scriptures than the Bahai followers themselves gave/give to those scriptures?

In fact, I remember reading from some Writings by Shoghi Effendi who said, in the Writings of Bahaullah, there are also hidden meanings, which is concealed from the eyes of us. When the next Manifestation comes, He will reveal their true and inner interpretations.
This is what every time God manifested himself did. When Jesus came, He interpreted the verses of the Old Testament in ways, different from the Jews.

Baha'u'llah has said mankind was not ready for the full weight of His Message and a lot of it has been lost.

Much of the Revelation was not recorded, it came out to quickly and at times when no scribe was available. Verses equivalent to the Quran would be revealed in a single day. At one time Baha'u'llah gathered many writings and ordered they be thrown into the tigress river, because humanity could not accept what they contained.

Also many tablets have been lost in the turmoil of the times, I do hope once Iran is open, that many more tablets will come to light. My guess many will be hidden for safe keeping.

Just because we have the name Baha'i does not mean we have and will get it right, in fact we know Messengers will still come.

Thus we have what is required for this age and that is the Oneness of God and the Oneness of humanity, the next urgent step is unity. Unity can not be found unless and until the councels of Baha'u'llah are heeded, even if we do not attribute them to the source.

The next probable step is the world as a whole must get together to set the requirements for a lasting peace, boundaries of Nations set and disarming of the Nations commenced. This will most likely only happen after another world embracing tribulation, man made, natural or combination.

Regards Tony
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
Thus is not followers deciding, this is the teachings of Baha'u'llah. Baha'ullah has said He is the Promised One of ALL past Scriptures.
Exactly. Now I'm telling you that another Teacher already came and he will now re-interprete the Bahai scriptures in a DIFFERENT way to how the Bahai's do it! He can do this because he is the latest Promised One who is the Master Interpretor of ALL the scriptures ever written on any planet! How would you like that, would it please you or would it displease you? Would it be a nice gesture towards the Bahai faith or would be a nasty gesture if He did this openly?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Exactly. Now I'm telling you that another Teacher already came and he will now re-interprete the Bahai scriptures in a DIFFERENT way to how the Bahai's do it! He can do this because he is the latest Promised One who is the Master Interpretor of ALL the scriptures ever written on any planet! How would you like that, would it please you or would it displease you? Would it be a nice gesture towards the Bahai faith or would be a nasty gesture if He did this openly?

If and when they can do as they please and they would have a hard time to explain away the 1000 year firm and set time. I would have concerns for them and those that may be inspired by what they offered, but in the end I can only change myself by my choices.

The best thing to consider is who would want to make such a claim and for what reason? If it is not of God, time will prove it to be so.

Baha'u'llah asks us to consider that very question.

We also have to consider God works in mysterious ways. When the Bab and Baha'u'llah gave their Message, God also inspired receptive hearts around the world to accept and embrace these teachings, well before many know of the source. This is why it was a time of great expectations and reform movements.

Regards Tony
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Exactly. Now I'm telling you that another Teacher already came and he will now re-interprete the Bahai scriptures in a DIFFERENT way to how the Bahai's do it! He can do this because he is the latest Promised One who is the Master Interpretor of ALL the scriptures ever written on any planet! How would you like that, would it please you or would it displease you? Would it be a nice gesture towards the Bahai faith or would be a nasty gesture if He did this openly?

It's a double standard, plain and simple. But those involved in having a double standard can't see it. The "I'm right and you're wrong' factor is just way too strong. In the other thread about who is going to bring peace, the JWs and Baha'i each accuse the other of things like prophecies not coming true, but neither can see it in themselves, just in the other side. It's quite odd, psychologically, but almost normal too, for this sort of discussion. My prophet is better than your prophet. Hope you don't fall into the same trap. Each person has the right to believe their version for themselves, but to claim it's for all humankind, or the only way the rest of us ought to see it is a bit sectcentric, (not a real word, I know) wouldn't you say?
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Exactly. Now I'm telling you that another Teacher already came and he will now re-interprete the Bahai scriptures in a DIFFERENT way to how the Bahai's do it! He can do this because he is the latest Promised One who is the Master Interpretor of ALL the scriptures ever written on any planet! How would you like that, would it please you or would it displease you? Would it be a nice gesture towards the Bahai faith or would be a nasty gesture if He did this openly?
This person needs to first establish His proofs that He is indeed the Manifestation of God. Once He proved His divinity, then we know, He is the Manifestation of God, and we make no difference between Him and Bahaullah. Should He complitly reinterpret the Bahai scriptures, we must believe in them. Whoever does not, has rejected Bahaullah as well.
In the same way, that, to Bahais, Bahaullah has proved His divinity. Thus Bahais make no difference between Jesus and Bahaullah.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Baha'is and the mainstream Christians both believe in the Bible, but they have different interpretations of the Holy Book. Namely, Bahais believe when Prophets spoke of Resurrection of Dead, They have always been speaking figuratively.
In this case, By the term 'Dead', They meant a misguided person, who spiritually is dead. By the term 'alive' they meant, a person who is guided through the Revelations of God. Thus, Resurrection of the Dead, is just a spiritual transformation of a person who was misguided and blind, to a person who is guided and his spiritual sight is open.
Accepting a new Revelation with a new Manifestation of God has been always a secret of God. For that reason, He never explicitly says, after Jesus, another revelation comes which replaces Christ Revelation. Instead the new guidance and Revelation is expressed as Resurrection of the Dead. In Bahai view, Resurrection has come to pass, and that was an allusion to Bahaullah's Revelation. The Hell and Heaven are likewise figurative. They denote 'disbelief', and 'belief' respectively. Whoever then on the Day of Resurrection recognizes the Manifestation of God and be guided by His teachings, is spiritually in 'Heaven'. Thus in Bahai view, Heaven is not somewhere physically, but it only denoted 'Spiritual state'. I hope that clarifies the difference in interpretations.
Hey Investigate Truth, can you give examples of prophets in the Bible speaking about the resurrection of the dead? Of course you'll have to include the gospels claim that Jesus resurrected. And then show how they were always intended to be figurative. Thanks.
 

arthra

Baha'i
We as Baha'is believe in what we call the "independent investigation of reality (truth)." So on becoming a Baha'i we go through a process of search and discovery. On becoming a Baha'i I went through a process of searching and discovering. I didn't become a Baha'i because my family was Baha'i. I searched in Christianity. I searched in Hinduism and Buddhism. I studied and practiced in an Ashram. There are always a variety of opinions and interpretations.

What you learn is that in our Faith there are "authorized" interpretations.

Before Baha'u'llah ascended from this world in 1892 He wrote a Will and authorized His eldest Son Abdul-Baha to interpret His Writings.

The Life of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá | What Bahá’ís Believe

Abdul-Baha was the Centre of the Faith from the passing of His Father until His own ascension in 1921.

"As to the most great characteristic of the revelation of Bahá'u'lláh -- a specific teaching not given by any of the Prophets of the past -- it is the ordination and appointment of the Center of the Covenant. By this appointment and provision He has safeguarded and protected the religion of God against differences and schisms, making it impossible for any one to create a new sect or faction of belief. To insure unity and agreement He has entered into a Covenant with all the people of the world including the Interpreter and Explainer of His teachings so that no one may interpret or explain the religion of God according to his own view or opinion and thus create a sect founded upon his individual understanding of the divine words. The Book of the Covenant or Testament of Bahá'u'lláh is the means of preventing such a possibility, for whosoever shall speak from the authority of himself alone shall be degraded. Be ye informed and cognizant of this."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - p. 247

Before His passing He left a Will and Testament designating His grandson Shoghi Effendi to interpret the Baha'i Writings:

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Will And Testament of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá

Shoghi Effendi passed away in 1957 and the Universal House of Justice was established in 1963 and is the Head of the Faith till this day. The "interpretations" of Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi stand to this day.

Everyone is still free to have their own opinions but for the Faith the authorized interpretations have authority and weight.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
It's a double standard, plain and simple. But those involved in having a double standard can't see it. The "I'm right and you're wrong' factor is just way too strong. In the other thread about who is going to bring peace, the JWs and Baha'i each accuse the other of things like prophecies not coming true, but neither can see it in themselves, just in the other side. It's quite odd, psychologically, but almost normal too, for this sort of discussion. My prophet is better than your prophet. Hope you don't fall into the same trap. Each person has the right to believe their version for themselves, but to claim it's for all humankind, or the only way the rest of us ought to see it is a bit sectcentric, (not a real word, I know) wouldn't you say?
What is crazy is that Baha'is really do believe that your religion is the truth, just not the way you believe your religion is the truth.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What are the five levels of Spirit?

I see it is an important topic so we can understand how our reality unfolds in this material world.

The first level is vegetable spirit, then animal spirit and then human spirit. We then have the spirit of faith and then Holy Spirit.

To rise above our human spirit man requires the spirit of faith and this in turn binds us to the Holy Spirit. This is why Christ said whoever beleives in me is born again into eternal life.

Regards Tony
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
It's a double standard, plain and simple. But those involved in having a double standard can't see it. The "I'm right and you're wrong' factor is just way too strong. In the other thread about who is going to bring peace, the JWs and Baha'i each accuse the other of things like prophecies not coming true, but neither can see it in themselves, just in the other side. It's quite odd, psychologically, but almost normal too, for this sort of discussion. My prophet is better than your prophet. Hope you don't fall into the same trap. Each person has the right to believe their version for themselves, but to claim it's for all humankind, or the only way the rest of us ought to see it is a bit sectcentric, (not a real word, I know) wouldn't you say?
I think I am immune or perhaps even allergic fo the religious or sectarian way of thinking, so I could never fall into such a trap.
Bahaullah seems to have been meddling in other religious frameworks, something my own preceptor did not do. Still my preceptor did have things in general to say about the faults of religions but more in the way Buddha did, so without actually attacking or criticizing the religious frameworks themselves.
You cannot say that religious scriptures represent truth and at the same time twist their original meaning into something different. Yet that seems to be the case here. But perhaps Christians and Muslims did a similar disingenuous thing with the Jewish scriptures which may have given the bad example to Bahaullah.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
What is crazy is that Baha'is really do believe that your religion is the truth, just not the way you believe your religion is the truth.
I've gone there with them before, and depending on the individual, some conceded that my version of Hinduism wasn't the one their guys were referring to, and one chap actually figured they didn't know much about Hinduism. So there is some movement out of dogma, albeit rare.

The writings on it are rather funny, as they're so far from reality.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I think I am immune or perhaps even allergic fo the religious or sectarian way of thinking, so I could never fall into such a trap.
Bahaullah seems to have been meddling in other religious frameworks, something my own preceptor did not do. Still my preceptor did have things in general to say about the faults of religions but more in the way Buddha did, so without actually attacking or criticizing the religious frameworks themselves.
You cannot say that religious scriptures represent truth and at the same time twist their original meaning into something different. Yet that seems to be the case here. But perhaps Christians and Muslims did a similar disingenuous thing with the Jewish scriptures which may have given the bad example to Bahaullah.

I'm immune to it too, because I celebrate diversity, and make no attempts to harmonise belief systems, just to get along, despite wide and obvious differences. Arguing history means living in the past, and you miss out on the present. Arguing theology is just ego.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Hey Investigate Truth, can you give examples of prophets in the Bible speaking about the resurrection of the dead? Of course you'll have to include the gospels claim that Jesus resurrected. And then show how they were always intended to be figurative. Thanks.
Many of them are explained in Bahai Writings. You can find some in these Books:
- Some Answered Questions
- Book of Certitude
 
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