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Featured Baha'i faith is not blind faith.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Spirit of Light, Jul 3, 2022.

  1. KWED

    KWED Scratching head, scratching knee

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    Yikes!
    "Meet the new god
    Same as the old god"
     
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  2. KWED

    KWED Scratching head, scratching knee

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    I have never understood that argument.
    I you don't believe in god in the first place, how is separation from him a punishment?
    And for those who would be affected, the believers, they believe so aren't going to be separated anyway.
    Just another meaningless religious platitude that unravels on close examination - something that believers rarely subject their beliefs to.
     
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  3. JustGeorge

    JustGeorge Unknown Member
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    I certainly wouldn't know. Abrahamic faith in general is not an area where I have much expertise.
     
  4. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    They find meaning in the spiritual teachings that they apply to their lives. When the spiritual teaching works it produces proof that they have a truth.

    Here's one argument for a self existing reality that is the foundation of all realities.



    That definition of faith is bogus.
     
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  5. Policy

    Policy Well-Known Member
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    Sure. But "finding meaning" is not the equivalent to being true. Christian dominionists and ISIS both find meaning in the spiritual teachings that they apply to their lives.
    Miasma theory worked, but it wasn't the truth. Geocentrism worked, but it wasn't the truth. Slavery worked, but it wasn't the truth. Women being morally or intellectually inferior to men worked, but it wasn't the truth.
     
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  6. Policy

    Policy Well-Known Member
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    He stumbles a little in the beginning of his argument -- "some part of reality cannot not be". While it is necessarily true that non-being cannot be, he fails to justify his "some part" of his statement. And without that justification, his first premise fails.

    I grant axiomatically that reality must have always existed. I do not grant that there is "some part" of reality that never existed as an axiom. That must be demonstrated.
     
  7. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    They offer the consequences of our choices.

    So any hell is a result of those choices, as hell is remoteness from God.

    It is choosing the darkest room when one is invited outside into the fullness of the mid day sun.

    Regards Tony
     
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  8. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    @JustGeorge You are correct. Hell is remoteness from God.

    The consequences of that remoteness are found in all religious scriptures, it is only fair we are given the warnings along with the promise of what acceptance can bring.

    Reward and punishment are part of this existence, how can we know justice if there is no injustice?

    Regards Tony
     
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  9. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    That is not correct.

    Regards Tony
     
  10. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    @Seeker of White Light statement is correct.

    It is by that independent investigation that we find that Baha'u'llah was trustworthy and truthful.

    When we then subsequently embrace the advice Baha'u'llah has given by God, we know it is trustworthy and truthful and can embrace this passage in that knowledge.

    "It is incumbent upon everyone to firmly adhere to God’s straight Path. Were He to pronounce the right to be the left or the south to be the north, He speaketh the truth and there is no doubt of it." Baha'u'llah.

    An example of this is that a great Majority of Muslims think Muhammad is the last Messenger, Baha'u'llah has proven that is wrong. That reflects the passage quoted above.

    Regards Tony
     
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  11. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Those religious sects are not after truth they are after dominion.

    One day we should find that physicalism works but is not the truth. There are logical arguments against physicalism.

    My original point is that there are reasons for faith. These topics can be argued ad infinitum.

     
  12. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    So us humans always existed?

    What about matter/anti matter annihilation?

    It's not so certain that our universe, or whatever began to exist of it, is self existing.

    So the argument is valid, and in need of demonstration. Ok.

    These are arguments that can be very lengthy.
     
  13. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Hmm. that's interesting. Don't you believe in the Imami doctrine? I mean you personally.
     
  14. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Is Ajjaheemi the same "remoteness from God" as mentioned by your manifestations of God?
     
  15. Policy

    Policy Well-Known Member
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    According to your spiritual beliefs. According to theirs you aren't after the truth. [shrug] Faith is not a reliable way of attaining truth.

    Do you mean actually mean physicalism (philosophical naturalism) or do you mean methodological naturalism? I haven't seen anyone here assert physicalism. It's pretty rare.

    Sure there are reasons for faith. There are reasons for everything that people do. From cooking their food to taking coffee enemas. Just saying there are reasons does not indicate that the reasons are good ones.
     
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  16. Policy

    Policy Well-Known Member
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    I do not know how you got that from what I said. Please explain.
     
  17. Policy

    Policy Well-Known Member
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    What about it? Are you thinking that the energy is lost? The collision of an electron and a positron (anti-electron) results in high energy photons. Nothing is lost.

    I was not talking about our universe. I was talking about reality, of which our universe is a part.

    I think you are trying to say that the argument is sound. Valid just means that it is properly structured. A valid argument can be incorrect.
    e.g. All ducks are purple. Martha is a duck. Therefor Martha is purple.
    That is a valid argument, but it is not sound because at least one premise is incorrect.
    Hid argument is valid in structure, but his premise is unjustified, therefore his argument is not sound.

    They can.
     
  18. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    There are reasons for having faith. How many people actually have faith before they find out what they have faith in is not how religion goes about acquiring faith in something. It's a non starter.

    All that exists is physical. I'm quite fine with methodological naturalism as the only way science can work. I'm talking about the philosophical position. I've never heard anyone logically validate their position that all that exists is physical. It's an assumption based on sense experience. It's rooted in subjective experience. Space and time, matter and energy in a 4 dimensional framework is all that exists; that's physicalism.

    Not all phenomenon can be explained solely in physical terms. The usefulness of empiricism is never an issue for me. Yet science itself is not necessarily offering truth value, nor is it the only method of knowing things. It's mankind's conceptualization of the natural world. QM, and GR don't even talk to each other agreeably.

    Unless you are refuting Abrahamic God scriptures in their literal interpretations, I see no use of arguing religion with science. Religion usually ends up being a philosophical battle of intuitions. Who has the best intuition and why?

    Religion applies to the edification of one's personal existence so that they can grow in character, and strength in issues of relationships and inner experience. Often that implies a spiritual destiny to be sought after. That often involves God(s). It doesn't have to though. I don't see how science should even enter into a religious discussion this way.

    If one is talking to an atheist, then you have to start at the beginning with general religious arguments. Of course a lot of religion is based on personal subjective experience. Spirituality usually refers to inner experience. How does one validate their inner experience and what wisdom is correct for that. Again not a scientific argument.
     
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  19. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Humans are some part of reality that at a time never existed.
     
  20. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    It's like if one asks a Muslim, don't you believe Jesus was Messiah? They do, but the Muslim view on Jesus is different from Christians view on Jesus.
    For example, Bahais don't believe there was a 12th Imam born before, and he was alive for thousands of years.
     
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