Baha'i faith is not blind faith.

[firedragon]

When and if you have time can you comment on this article by Momen about the "Akka" traditions? I expect there will be some controversy, like the reliability of these hadiths and their sources, but if you could help me out to know a little of what is going on here.

OMG. That's a huge huge topic CG. It's not easy to give such big opinions so quickly. I respect Moojan because he is a prolific writer.

What I can say is that the ahadith that he mentions in his book had false sources but he himself corrected himself that it was false. That's one source. And he takes what Bahaullah said and tries to research the sources of it. If you take a look at the sources he mentions, a lot of them are dated to half a millennia distant from Muhammed. Note this very carefully. He names people who lived long ago, but there are no authentic, dated manuscripts going back to them whatsoever. Forget about dating, there aren't even valid chains of word of mouth narrations going back to them. Bahaullah quotes Malik ibn Anas in his writing that Moojan quotes. But there is no authenticity to it whatsoever. If it comes from somewhere it has to be the Mudawwana al Qubra, and there is nothing in the Mudawwana about a blessed city called Akka. It is not found in the Muwatta. It just does not exist. Malik ibn Anas was a scholar coming from the Medinan school of thought. It's the oldest surviving school of thought in Sunni Islam. There are no traditions reaching to this source about a city called Akka which has some special blessings and those who vouches for God IN THAT CITY HAS SPECIAL PRIVILEGES. And, this goes against the Qur'an. There is no indication in the Qur'an that God gives special privileges in salvation to someone because of their race or their country.

I can say that this is a post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Let me tell you something very clearly and directly. If Muhammed said something in the 7th century, at least someone somewhere must have a minimum of a chain of narrators that goes back to him. At least. Lets say someone is writing a story in the 15th century, at least "make up" a chain. It maybe unauthentic, but someone could at least begin a study on it. Otherwise it's just hearsay coming from someone a millennium apart and that too with no proper sources. This hearsay is the worst kind of hearsay you could have and believe.

What I am curious about is, why did you bring this up?

 

[firedragon]

Indic religions (Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism and Sikhism) are the most peaceful and accommodating of all religions. We do not have the compulsion to follow one prophet or one book.

So another "we" group? India in history has invaded many countries and have been killing each other within the same country. And all of these things you speak of are just because it's part of your "we" group. See, none of your "we" groups violent behaviour can be blamed on their religions. But if I play the same hate speech flute you are playing, I can say that both your "we" groups are monstrous and blood thirsty.

Earlier you were dissing all religions. Now since it's coming from your "we" group you have to exclude them. This is hypocrisy.

 

[Aupmanyav]

India in history has invaded many countries and have been killing each other within the same country.
Earlier you were dissing all religions. Now since it's coming from your "we" group you have to exclude them. This is hypocrisy.

The only invasion that I know of is the Chola incursion in South Asia. I read that it was for safety of Tamil traders. The in-country fights for possession of territories never involved harming of civilians. Yeah the four religions have been by and large peaceful and respectful of each other.

 

[firedragon]

The only invasion that I know of is the Chola incursion in South Asia. I read that it was for safety of Tamil traders. The in-country fights for possession of territories never involved harming of civilians. Yeah the four religions have been by and large peaceful and respectful of each other.

Aup. You trying to defend your country is fine with me. I don't want to sit here and demonise your country like you arbitrarily and bialy demonise religions, but not your counties religions. I told you several times that I was only playing your flute.

This is a ridiculous bias. Just leave it. And you have not read anything up. All you have is your dire need to demonise people. India was a great country. Every civilisation in the world have had their fair share of wars and peace and empires and invasions. Some have been truly brutal and really really oppressive. But I think you are obsessed with demonising certain elements only because you never speak about the British massacre of India and its economy where many studies have been done in India itself. I suggest that if you wish to do this slander game, study your own country and it's history and enlighten yourself a bit. Study something. Don't be obsessed with "You are a murderer, not me or mine" kind of attitude.

This is really bad.

 

[Aupmanyav]

But I think you are obsessed with demonising certain elements only because you never speak about the British massacre of India and its economy where many studies have been done in India itself.

That is not true, Firedragon. I generally do not speak about past, about Muslims or about Christians (including the British). The Portuguese were another people who committed atrocities in India. I consider that history, past, now a story only. Not even about partition of India, I leave that to chauvinist Hindus. Is it any use crying over spilt milk? India is doing fine economically, second to none, with 9.5% in 2021 and 8.5% in 2022. That is important.

World Economic Outlook, October 2021: Recovery During A Pandemic

 

[firedragon]

That is not true, Firedragon. I generally do not speak about past, about Muslims or about Christians (including the British). The Portuguese were another people who committed atrocities in India. I consider that history, past, now a story only. Not even about partition of India, I leave that to chauvinist Hindus. Is it any use crying over spilt milk? India is doing fine economically, second to none, with 9.5% in 2021 and 8.5% in 2022. That is important.

View attachment 64432 World Economic Outlook, October 2021: Recovery During A Pandemic

Convenient isn't it? To me, this is the definition of hypocrisy. England=Past. Muslims=Past present and future all bad.

You have a serious problem.

Ill tell you what. Lets play this game. I am gonna play the flute you are playing. I am intentionally gonna demonise you and yours.

2 decades India funded, helped, gave route, and training to the LTTE which was the most dangerous terrorist group in the world. Rajiv Ghandi was assassinated by them, and Jayalalitha turned the tide. Was that in the past? Why did you support a terrorist group who invented the suicide jacket? They even killed your country's prime minister. They were Hindu/Atheist/Leninist. Your "we" group. This is you and what you are defending.

Why are you lynching innocent Muslims? Why are you being racist? Do you claim that does not happen? Or are you gonna suddenly dig up some past nonsense to justify your racism? British = Past so you buried the hatchet?? But Muslim past you will bring up because that's what you are? Lets see.

Lets play the same game you are playing.

Atheism murdered 35 million people in China and Russia. According to your standards, this is to be blamed on atheism. This is the most atrocious murderous rampage in there history of there world. The main party in Russia was the league of atheists. They were named the league of atheists. So by definition this is the fault of atheism, using your own standards. So mate. This is you. Your same hate speech they used, went behind theists, priests etc and murdered them. You can never find bigger numbers than this. This is your legacy. Do some research and find out how many people they killed. How many died.

Read up.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Where did I say that they were bad? They were creatures of their times.
If Rajiv GAndhi did that it was for the reason that Tamils were migrating to India. Like in the case of Bangladesh, why should people come illegally to India? We already have a full house. LTTE had other sources for their funds, particularly Tamils in Europe and USA. They were not dependent on India.
That happens in India at times. Hindus also are lynched, like the killing of two sadhus in Palghar, Maharashtra. Those killed were given excellent compensation by governments. What do you think about recent two beheadings of Hindus in Udaipur and Amravati? Are you aware of that? It is a pity that five young people are likely to get death sentences for these two murders and their accomplices will get jail terms. People must understand that crime does not pay.
I am not concerned by what communists did in Russia. That is history now. China is persecuting all who go against its official policy. Sure, the Uighurs are oppressed. But it should be understood that no country will permit secession or terrorist activity if it has power to avert that. People should not play that dangerous game.

Murder of Kanhaiya Lal - Wikipedia
Murder of Umesh Kolhe - Wikipedia

 

[Truthseeker]

ndic religions (Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism and Sikhism) are the most peaceful and accommodating of all religions. We do not have the compulsion to follow one prophet or one book.

Yet you have a hostility towards Abrahamic religions personally. Not all of those in India feel that way, though. The ruling party seems to be hostile that way towards Muslims, which is not good. Too many times also Abrahamic religious followers have fought with each other, and divided into hostile sects.

Hindu people have different beliefs among each other, but they don't fight over that. That is it's strength. In ther past, the Hindu leaders drove out Buddhists from India. The Buddhists of Myanmar have committted violance against Muslims. Sri Lanka had a long war over both ethnic and religious lines between Hindus and Buddhists. The ethnic division had as much to do with it as religious, or maybe more.

 

[CG Didymus]

What I am curious about is, why did you bring this up?

As you are probably well aware of, I question the claims made by the Baha'i Faith. They want people to investigate. But after just a little bit of digging, I find there are problems with their claims. This is how it all began...

Personally I see the victory has been won. Baha'u'llah sits upon the throne and the Law goes out from Zion.

Carmel and Sharon, they have seen the glory of the Lord,

Tony has Baha'u'llah on a throne and the law going out of Zion. My question...

Well, Carmel and Sharon are great if all we look at is the Bible, but even with that the throne of David is mentioned and Zion is mentioned a lot. Baha'is have little or nothing to do with Zion and/or Jerusalem, do they? Just a technicality to you, but probably not to Jews.

Then Christians would probably agree that Jerusalem is the place where Jesus will return to. I believe they have a verse that mentions the Mt. of Olives. If we're going to talk in just generalities and say that it is only symbolic, then who cares. But that makes anybody's claim just as valid as the Baha'i claims.

Then what about the other religions? Like in Islam... When and where does the Mahdi come? If not specific cities in Persia, then we got a problem. Then, the usual one, will there be two people returning? But then of all places to set up the headquarters of his new religion... Haifa, Israel? Is that prophesied in Islam?

Then the Buddha and Krishna... Where does Kalki and Maitreya return to? And when do they return? Again, if we want to take symbolically, we can make it fit anybody we want to. So, it really doesn't fulfill anything.

Lots of stuff there. I didn't think Tony would answer all of them. But he answered with Hadith about Akka?

Yes CG, I Islam there are some very specific Hadith.

Here is a link to some.

Akka Traditions (hadith) in the Epistle to the Son of the Wolf

Okay, what am I supposed to do with this? Does if say, "When the Christ comes back. He will be banished from his country, Persia, and be sent to the prison city of Akka." But it doesn't say that. Then how am I to know where these Hadith even came from? But Tony reassures me...

They were quoted by Baha'u'llah. They have been located and confirmed.

So, these are indeed reliable and trustworthy? Apparently, because...

the Islamic Imams in the time of the Bab and Baha’u’llah found none of the traditions the Bab and Baha’u’llah quoted could be refuted.

Tony says that the Imams didn't want to believe the Bab and Baha'u'llah, but when they checked it out, they found the things they said were true.

Of course, they did. Why would I expect they wouldn't? But... I needed a second opinion. That's why I asked you. I trust that you'll give an honest answer that is based on things you've studied and researched. What I needed to know was there some question about the reliability of these Hadiths? And you've given me the answer that, "Yes", there are some issues with them. So, thank you for taking the time to respond.

 

[firedragon]

As you are probably well aware of, I question the claims made by the Baha'i Faith. They want people to investigate. But after just a little bit of digging, I find there are problems with their claims. This is how it all began...

Tony has Baha'u'llah on a throne and the law going out of Zion. My question...

Lots of stuff there. I didn't think Tony would answer all of them. But he answered with Hadith about Akka?

Okay, what am I supposed to do with this? Does if say, "When the Christ comes back. He will be banished from his country, Persia, and be sent to the prison city of Akka." But it doesn't say that. Then how am I to know where these Hadith even came from? But Tony reassures me...

So, these are indeed reliable and trustworthy? Apparently, because...

Tony says that the Imams didn't want to believe the Bab and Baha'u'llah, but when they checked it out, they found the things they said were true.

Of course, they did. Why would I expect they wouldn't? But... I needed a second opinion. That's why I asked you. I trust that you'll give an honest answer that is based on things you've studied and researched. What I needed to know was there some question about the reliability of these Hadiths? And you've given me the answer that, "Yes", there are some issues with them. So, thank you for taking the time to respond.

Okay. I understand.

From a Bahai faith point of view, whatever Bahaullah says is basically like Gods word so for them that is the authentication. But from my point of view the ahadith are quoting the prophet Muhammed, and none of them are authentic in any way because there are no chains going back to even that era. Not even to the people it quotes. E.g. Malik ibn Anas. The sources are the Mudawwana and the Muwatta.

Peace.

 

[CG Didymus]

Okay. I understand.

From a Bahai faith point of view, whatever Bahaullah says is basically like Gods word so for them that is the authentication. But from my point of view the ahadith are quoting the prophet Muhammed, and none of them are authentic in any way because there are no chains going back to even that era. Not even to the people it quotes. E.g. Malik ibn Anas. The sources are the Mudawwana and the Muwatta.

Peace.

Yes, because they believe his word is the Word of God and can't be wrong, it makes asking questions useless, because there is only one true and correct answer... whatever the Baha'i Faith says is true. But I was surprised that all Tony gave me was Hadith about Akka and nothing from Islam that would support the Bab and Baha'u'llah coming from Persia.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony says that the Imams didn't want to believe the Bab and Baha'u'llah, but when they checked it out, they found the things they said were true.

Of course, they did. Why would I expect they wouldn't? But... I needed a second opinion. That's why I asked you. I trust that you'll give an honest answer that is based on things you've studied and researched. What I needed to know was there some question about the reliability of these Hadiths? And you've given me the answer that, "Yes", there are some issues with them. So, thank you for taking the time to respond.

So is there no trust I give honest replies? This shows one should do their own search, make up their own mind.

Did you read the link? There was a summary opinion of that Author. There are also many other opinions available, to which when I wanted to know about this topic, I looked up and found. I found enough to satisfy my curiosity.

The key is, I have read, over the last 40 years, much history of the Baha'i Faith. It is just plain logical, that if the Imam wanted to discredit Baha'u'llah, then they would discredit inaccurate references.

That is precisely what they attempted to do, only to get egg on their faces.

Sen McKinn also offers the difficulty in sourcing references at this time, as one can not search in Iran.

Also records change and are changes for a reason. One if those reasons would be to make sure any reference to the Bab and Baha’u’llah was obliterated from records.

All the best CG, I will offer less and less.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, because they believe his word is the Word of God and can't be wrong, it makes asking questions useless, because there is only one true and correct answer... whatever the Baha'i Faith says is true. But I was surprised that all Tony gave me was Hadith about Akka and nothing from Islam that would support the Bab and Baha'u'llah coming from Persia.

Personally I do not need any of these CG. I have not had a need to find any. The Oneness of God and of Mankind was all I needed.

Also I do not read Arabic. Many hadith have not been translated.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

Yes, because they believe his word is the Word of God and can't be wrong, it makes asking questions useless, because there is only one true and correct answer... whatever the Baha'i Faith says is true. But I was surprised that all Tony gave me was Hadith about Akka and nothing from Islam that would support the Bab and Baha'u'llah coming from Persia.

But, isn't this so called Akka supposed to be n Syria according to the quoted narrations? Tehran is through Iraq to the south east. So unless it is referring to a place further north of Tabriz or something it cannot be related. Im just curious.

 

[CG Didymus]

So is there no trust I give honest replies? This shows one should do their own search, make up their own mind.

Did you read the link? There was a summary opinion of that Author. There are also many other opinions available, to which when I wanted to know about this topic, I looked up and found. I found enough to satisfy my curiosity.

The key is, I have read, over the last 40 years, much history of the Baha'i Faith. It is just plain logical, that if the Imam wanted to discredit Baha'u'llah, then they would discredit inaccurate references.

That is precisely what they attempted to do, only to get egg on their faces.

Sen McKinn also offers the difficulty in sourcing references at this time, as one can not search in Iran.

Also records change and are changes for a reason. One if those reasons would be to make sure any reference to the Bab and Baha’u’llah was obliterated from records.

All the best CG, I will offer less and less.

Regards Tony

Unfortunately, it's things like Baha'u'llah saying that Ishmael, and not Isaac, was the one taken to be sacrificed and saying something that made it sound like Noah had lived for 950 years, and then Baha'u'llah doesn't mention anything about the flood. Then Abdul Baha' making the resurrection something symbolic when the NT writers go out of their way to make it clear that Jesus had come back to life. Yes, not a normal body but a body that supposedly had flesh and bone.

These are so basic. It doesn't take a scholar to find these things. It makes me question them. You? I'm absolutely sure that you are as honest as can be to what you believe it true. But when it comes to the Momen article about the Akka Hadiths? That is way beyond me.

 

[CG Didymus]

But, isn't this so called Akka supposed to be n Syria according to the quoted narrations? Tehran is through Iraq to the south east. So unless it is referring to a place further north of Tabriz or something it cannot be related. Im just curious.

I have no idea. The only Akka I know Baha'is talk about is where Baha'u'llah was imprisoned, which is by Haifa in Israel, not north of Tabriz. I'll take a look at the "Son of the Wolf" epistles of Baha'u'llah and see how he used these Akka Hadiths.

 

[firedragon]

I have no idea. The only Akka I know Baha'is talk about is where Baha'u'llah was imprisoned, which is by Haifa in Israel, not north of Tabriz. I'll take a look at the "Son of the Wolf" epistles of Baha'u'llah and see how he used these Akka Hadiths.

Ah. Akko in Israel. The only Akka I know is in Morocco.

Anyway, I have read the so called epistle to the son of the wolf. In that Bahaullah quotes several ahadith which says Akka is a place in Syria.

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'i do not fight with any person

Term them as following religions which are corrupted and outdated.

Yes, that bothers me also. Baha'is say that all the religions are true, but I think they really mean just the major, revealed religions. But then say that they are all outdated and maybe even corrupted. But like your beliefs, I'm sure they'd have no problem telling you how wrong you are. And, maybe that's not "fighting", but in the past they've become fighting words.

It seems to me that what Baha'is really mean is that all religions are one... when you take away all the false and misinterpreted beliefs that are found in the other religions. What is left is just a few basic and very general beliefs like, "Everybody should love one another." Golden Rule kind of stuff. Past that, all religions have different concepts about most everything.

The intent of the Baha'is I can agree with, that it's time to put aside our differences, including our religious differences, and respect each other and get along with each other. But... then Baha'is come in with another bunch of religious beliefs that are necessary for people to believe in to achieve the peace and harmony that they talk about. Which, kind of means, dump your religious beliefs and accept our newer and better, uncorrupted, beliefs.

That's been the problem with all these threads. That is what Baha'is are really asking us to do. And they wonder why we can't see the "light" and leave our old religious beliefs behind... all for the sake of the peace and uniting that would come by all of us believing the same thing.

 

[CG Didymus]

Ah. Akko in Israel. The only Akka I know is in Morocco.

Anyway, I have read the so called epistle to the son of the wolf. In that Bahaullah quotes several ahadith which says Akka is a place in Syria.

I just read the last few pages and have no clue what's going on. Thanks for looking it to it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Unfortunately, it's things like Baha'u'llah saying that Ishmael, and not Isaac, was the one taken to be sacrificed and saying something that made it sound like Noah had lived for 950 years, and then Baha'u'llah doesn't mention anything about the flood. Then Abdul Baha' making the resurrection something symbolic when the NT writers go out of their way to make it clear that Jesus had come back to life. Yes, not a normal body but a body that supposedly had flesh and bone.

These are so basic. It doesn't take a scholar to find these things. It makes me question them. You? I'm absolutely sure that you are as honest as can be to what you believe it true. But when it comes to the Momen article about the Akka Hadiths? That is way beyond me.

All the best CG.

Regards Tony