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Baha'i faith is not blind faith.

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well, Carmel and Sharon are great if all we look at is the Bible, but even with that the throne of David is mentioned and Zion is mentioned a lot. Baha'is have little or nothing to do with Zion and/or Jerusalem, do they? Just a technicality to you, but probably not to Jews. Then Christians would probably agree that Jerusalem is the place where Jesus will return to. I believe they have a verse that mentions the Mt. of Olives. If we're going to talk in just generalities and say that it is only symbolic, then who cares. But that makes anybody's claim just as valid as the Baha'i claims.

Today is the Martyrdom of the Bab, a Holy day for Baha'is.

I do not know what to offer you CG. I have previously offered many thoughts on this topic and yes it is all about choice. We do get to choose, Jesus said we would face many false prophets, so what else are we expecting?

What are we looking for, a 100% material unfoldment of spiritual prophecies? I see that prophecy gives pieces of the puzzle that only the Spirit can put together.

Remember Jesus offered that He would give a new name and there would be a new Jerusalem and Baha'u'llah offered this.

"THE time fore-ordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause.."

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Then what about the other religions? Like in Islam... When and where does the Mahdi come? If not specific cities in Persia, then we got a problem. Then, the usual one, will there be two people returning? But then of all places to set up the headquarters of his new religion... Haifa, Israel? Is that prophesied in Islam?

Yes CG, I Islam there are some very specific Hadith.

Here is a link to some.

Akka Traditions (hadith) in the Epistle to the Son of the Wolf

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What does that mean? Do you mean atheists who have not yet seen the Light of God?

It is a snippet from the Revelation of Baha'u'llah Volume 3 chapter 15, it is one of those little gems that remain in the mind. Here is the explanation from the quote that it is extracted from.

"There are many exhortations in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas calling the believers to live a saintly life and to adorn themselves with the ornament of goodly character and divine virtues.

There are many people, not Bahá'ís, who have been brought up to live a good life in their own traditions. They are trained from childhood to be courteous, kind and loving. They evince many good qualities which are inculcated in them until they have become second nature. They perform good deeds habitually. Such people merit the highest praise. But because they are deprived of the spirit of faith borne by God's Messenger to this age, they are like exquisite lamps which have not been lit......"

Abdul'baha has given this thought.

"Although a person of good deeds is acceptable at the Threshold of the Almighty, yet it is first "to know," and then "to do." Although a blind man produceth a most wonderful and exquisite art, yet he is deprived of seeing it. Consider how most animals labor for man, draw loads and facilitate travel; yet, as they are ignorant, they receive no reward for this toil and labor. The cloud raineth, roses and hyacinths grow; the plain and meadow, the garden and trees become green and blossom; yet they do not realize the results and outcome of all these. The lamp is lighted, but as it hath not a conscious knowledge of itself, no one hath become glad because of it. Moreover, a soul of excellent deeds and good manners will undoubtedly advance from whatever horizon he beholdeth the lights radiating. Herein lies the difference: By faith is meant, first, conscious knowledge, and second, the practice of good deeds.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Bahá’í World Faith, p. 382

So Faith is a lighted lamp. There is many, many passages that explain this Susan.

The whole purpose of life is to find the light within, polish the mirror of our hearts and let that light radiate to others. Without the light we are exquisite lamps on display.

Also remember that unlit lamps, that live a virtuous life, are still under the mercy and bounty of God.

Regards Tony
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Go back to the scripture I quoted. From his own scripture. Tell me if it means people go to hell or they don't.

Why? I wouldn't care either way.

And his scripture is irrelevant to your claim that he doesn't care about that scripture, which case you've never made and couldn't make quoting scripture in any event. Failing to accommodate you means he doesn't care about your opinions on that scripture any longer, not what you claimed about him. He made that pretty clear with "go to hell."

Read the his scripture, and address the argument.

I did address the argument. Twice now. You made an unsupported claim about him, one that is obviously incorrect if they're HIS scriptures. And I didn't need to read any of those scripture to do so. Since you haven't rebutted the argument, I consider that issue resolved.

Or maybe you'd like to try and rebut it now. To do that, you'll need to provide evidence and argument that demonstrates that you are right and I am wrong, that he doesn't care about his scriptures rather than that he doesn't care about your opinions any longer. You can't because you have no such evidence, which is necessarily the case when one is incorrect. And one indication that my rebuttal of your claim is correct is the inability to show that it is not. Correct statements cannot be successfully rebutted. As I said, until you successfully rebut what is presently the last plausible, unrebutted statement, which was mine, I consider the matter settled.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I did address the argument.

Ill give you the argument since you never addressed it. You say twice? Lets see if you could address it once.

Bab - Qayyum al asma - Soorathul Nahl. It mentions about a man who is the flip side of another man who is a good man, but this guy is like just about to fall into hell, and he is called by the fires of hell.

Qur'an - Soorathul Bakarah - Verse 206 it speaks of a corrupter of the earth, a hypocrite, a power-hungry person who as soon as gets power seeks to corrupt the earth, his destination is hell-fire, and it's said as the "Mihaadh" as in where he will be homed or his abode.

Directly said.

So do people go to hell at all based on the Qur'an and Qayyoom al Asma? Or do they never?

That's the argument.

So please do show me where you had responded "twice" to this argument.

Thanks in advance.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Ill give you the argument since you never addressed it. You say twice? Lets see if you could address it once.

Bab - Qayyum al asma - Soorathul Nahl. It mentions about a man who is the flip side of another man who is a good man, but this guy is like just about to fall into hell, and he is called by the fires of hell.

Qur'an - Soorathul Bakarah - Verse 206 it speaks of a corrupter of the earth, a hypocrite, a power-hungry person who as soon as gets power seeks to corrupt the earth, his destination is hell-fire, and it's said as the "Mihaadh" as in where he will be homed or his abode.

Directly said.

So do people go to hell at all based on the Qur'an and Qayyoom al Asma? Or do they never?

That's the argument.

So please do show me where you had responded "twice" to this argument.

Thanks in advance.

That's not the argument I rebutted. In fact, I've never seen it. I worked back in your discussions to where he told you he was done discussing these things with you, that he didn't care about what you had to say, and you argued that that was evidence that he didn't care about his scriptures, which is obviously incorrect and said in bad faith - what I characterized as bullying. I saw where you directed him to some scriptures you had posted, but I didn't go to them because they are irrelevant to me, and irrelevant to my rebuttal of your claims. I don't care about doctrine or theology. It doesn't matter to me what any holy book says. I don't go to them for knowledge or advice. I still haven't read what you posted above. I saw the first several words and lost interest. You'll have to work that out with the other poster if he's interested. He seems to care about things like hell and what scripture has to say about it, but you'll probably need to apologize to him for your posting etiquette and convince him that it's worth his time.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I have got the answer. It is "Go only by what has evidence'. After doing that there are no more questions. There are some questions which are not answerable today. Do not try to fill the gaps with unevidenced claptrap. Wait for more data to be available. As for God, soul, prophets etc., as an strong atheist, I dismiss it out-right.
Especially because we know there is, and has been, several, like you say, "snake-oil" salesmen. They got a good story to entice people in, but are they really manifestations, prophets, gurus or whatever they claim to be. Like you've told us about Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Very close to the same claims as the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

There are people claiming to be the return of the Buddha and Krishna. I even include Joseph Smith in there, because he claimed an angel spoke with him. Some of these movements have more followers than the Baha'is. Which shows that it doesn't matter if the religious movement is true, as long as people believe it is true. And why would they believe the claims are true? Because they fall for the assumed honestly and truthfulness of the person that started the movement. They fall for the supposed "evidence" to the claims made by the self-proclaimed prophet. They believe the "fulfilled" prophecy that point, for them, so clearly to their guy... being the one. Then there are those religious movements that use "the promise"... you'll be rewarded in the next life. Follow the rules now. Believe in our leader now, and you'll be closer to God in the afterlife.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
They were quoted by Baha'u'llah. They have been located and confirmed.
That is for you to fight with Muslims. Atheist and Hindus believe neither in one nor in the other. We wash our hands like Pontius, the Pilate of Judea, and feel sad about it as to how religions divide people on basis of these stories.
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
That is for you to fight with Muslims. Atheist believe neither in one nor the other. We wash our hands like Pontius, the Pilate of Judea, and feel sad about it as to how religions divide people.

What do you mean "we"? What is this "we" group? Is that like a wannabe group? A tribe? Are you calling for cavalry?

Atheists don't believe in Brahman mate. You do. And you are living to create discord and disharmony in the world by turning humans into demons making religion turn into a divisive, war monger. Study history. If I am to play the same flute you are playing, I can tell you that your "we" get with it crew has created more division, more terrorism, more everything that you love to speak about ignorantly. Your polemics are evil. Monstrous. It's your religion. And I am playing your own flute. :)
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
If it is not 'Bahai speak', then you need some one to tell you that it is not, and that you need to pay more attention to what you are saying or writing. You (and myself) are not perfect, but we should try to be better
I appreciate that, but I already know how I fell short.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That is for you to fight with Muslims. Atheist believe neither in one nor the other. We wash our hands like Pontius, the Pilate of Judea, and feel sad about it as to how religions divide people on basis of these stories.

There is no fight to have Aupmanyav. The Baha'i do not fight with any person, but we do, and always will, ask and appeal for justice.

Regards Tony
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
I am asking 'what are the rewards of being near to Allah in Bahaism'. Kindly be specific.
Well, in our inner selves we potentially reflect all the attributes of God. If we are near to God or Allah, or whatever you name Him, we attain into bliss because we are at "home", so to speak. That's the best I can explain it probably. In a Hidden Word it is also said:

6. O SON OF BEING!
Thy Paradise is My love; thy heavenly home, reunion with Me.
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
They were quoted by Baha'u'llah. They have been located and confirmed.

Regards Tony
As you know I have trouble with what Baha'u'llah and Abdul Baha' say about the Bible and the NT... Like the thing about Ishmael vs. Isaac or the thing about Three Woes.or the resurrection not being physical. With Islam, right now, I don't know enough to believe or not believe what Baha'u'llah says about these hadith. Oh, and another thing about the Bible, how Baha'u'llah talks about Noah, but he doesn't mention the flood. But I'll read over that article that you linked to some more and see what it says.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Thats the whole argument.
When and if you have time can you comment on this article by Momen about the "Akka" traditions? I expect there will be some controversy, like the reliability of these hadiths and their sources, but if you could help me out to know a little of what is going on here.

Akka Traditions (hadith) in the Epistle to the Son of the Wolf

They were quoted by Baha'u'llah. They have been located and confirmed.
Sorry, Tony I don't know enough to comment on this. I hope Firedragon and Link can give me a little something to better understand what's going on with these hadiths. The article by Momen is talking about things I'm not familiar with.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Your polemics are evil. Monstrous. It's your religion. And I am playing your own flute. :)
Indic religions (Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism and Sikhism) are the most peaceful and accommodating of all religions. We do not have the compulsion to follow one prophet or one book.
"O SON OF BEING! Thy Paradise is My love; thy heavenly home, reunion with Me."
After death, we cease to exist, so who is there to experience any bliss? All through a person's life, (as perhaps you believe) Allah or God is putting him/her through various tests including troubles, infirmities and horrible deaths; and after death, he talks of giving us bliss! Why not in our life-time?
The Baha'i do not fight with any person, but ..
Term them as following religions which are corrupted and outdated.
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Sorry, Tony I don't know enough to comment on this. I hope Firedragon and Link can give me a little something to better understand what's going on with these hadiths. The article by Momen is talking about things I'm not familiar with.

No worries CG, just remember, the Islamic Imams in the time of the Bab and Baha’u’llah found none of the traditions the Bab and Baha’u’llah quoted could be refuted.

Both the Bab and Baha'u'llah quoted many traditions, traditions the most learned of Divines were not even familiar with. Thus when they were quoted they rubbed their hands together and thought, we have them now. :)

Then the searches began and bingo, they were located. They did not imprison the Bab and banish Baha’u’llah because they were criminals, they carried out those injustices because they could not be proven wrong and were attracting souls at an unprecedented rate.

Today was the Martyrdom of the Bab. The greatest story yet to be told. In the future everyone will know that story.

Regards Tony
 
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