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Baha'i faith is not blind faith.

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Good observation. They do seem to be different.
Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi took it upon themselves to interpret what Baha'u'llah wrote but I believe they also added onto it as well as giving it their own spin. I'd say that Baha'u'llah did not mince words but they were more lenient.
So Bahaullah wasn't infallibly relaying god's message. He was interpreting what he thought god's message was, and didn't necessarily get it right. His successors sometimes had to correct him.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Because the world is just that way. Bad **** happens to good people, and good things happen for bad people. The concept of a loving god is incoherent in light of the evidence, so religions have to come up with a way to reconcile the problem.
You took the words right out of my mouth. The concept of a loving God is incoherent in light of the evidence, so religions have to come up with a way to reconcile the problem. They cannot reconcile the problem logically so they have their religious apologetics, better known as making excuses for God.
How can you have a problem with anything he says. You claim he is infallibly relaying the perfect word of a loving god. If you think any part of that claim is not true, the whole house of cards collapses.
Abdu'l-Baha was not infallible as he was just a man, not a Messenger of God. I have lots of problems with things he says.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Hell does exist but not as geographical location... Hell is state of the soul that is distant from God, not distant geographically, but distant in the heart. Iows, we don't love God.
You misunderstand.
If "hell" is the state of being separated from god - for people who do not believe in god, hell does not exist.
And for people who do believe in god, they will not be separated from him.
Therefore the hell of your definition is utterly pointless.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So Bahaullah wasn't infallibly relaying god's message. He was interpreting what he thought god's message was, and didn't necessarily get it right. His successors sometimes had to correct him.
No, it is the opposite way around. Baha'u'llah got it right because He was infallible, but His successors who were appointed as interpreters sometimes changed and added onto that message.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You misunderstand.
If "hell" is the state of being separated from god - for people who do not believe in god, hell does not exist.
And for people who do believe in god, they will not be separated from him.
Therefore the hell of your definition is utterly pointless.
No, the people who do not believe in God are separated from God so and that is what hell is.
People who believe in God and do not love God might also be separated from God and that is also hell.
But people who do believe in God and love God will not be separated from God so they won't be in hell.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
That is not what I said.
That is the logical implication of what you said.
Of course, I don't expect you to understand that.

God's message changes over time because the message is for humans and humans and the world they live in changes over time. God's Laws change over time in order to accommodate the times we live in.
So god's message and god's laws are subjective rather than objective. :rolleyes:
(ie. they vary with circumstance rather than being fixed and universal)

this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is modified and altered in each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times.”
Thus confirming that it is subjective.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
You took the words right out of my mouth. The concept of a loving God is incoherent in light of the evidence, so religions have to come up with a way to reconcile the problem. They cannot reconcile the problem logically so they have their religious apologetics, better known as making excuses for God.
So you admit that the Bahai god is not a loving god.
Then what is he?

Abdu'l-Baha was not infallible as he was just a man, not a Messenger of God. I have lots of problems with things he says.
Sorry, meant Bahaullah.
But this raises another thorny problem. You just claimed that Abdulbaha and Shoghi Effendi had to reinterpret and clarify Bahaullah's writings. But they were just men while he was god's infallible messenger - so how does that work?
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
No, it is the opposite way around. Baha'u'llah got it right because He was infallible, but His successors who were appointed as interpreters sometimes changed and added onto that message.
Ah, so we should disregard any of their changes or additions?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
No, that is what Bahaullah said. Read it again...

"It is incumbent upon everyone to firmly adhere to God’s straight Path. Were He to pronounce the right to be the left or the south to be the north, He speaketh the truth and there is no doubt of it."

Ironically, it is you who is imposing an unconnected meaning determined by your existing agenda rather than the actual words Bahaullah used.
I am a Baha'i, have been for over 51 years, so I know what Baha'u'llah meant, since I am familiar with His other Writings which have the same theme.

That is not to be interpreted literally, it is figurative. In short, it means that whatever He says is incontrovertibly true.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
No, the people who do not believe in God are separated from God so and that is what hell is.
How can they be separated from something that does not exist?

People who believe in God and do not love God might also be separated from God and that is also hell.
You have claimed that god is not loving, so why would anyone love him back?

[/quote]But people who do believe in God and love God will not be separated from God so they won't be in hell.[/QUOTE] So think it is better to not believe in god at all than to believe in him but not love him.
Do you love your unloving god?
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I am a Baha'i, have been for over 51 years, so I know what Baha'u'llah meant, since I am familiar with His other Writings which have the same theme.
If you are wrong, it doesn't matter how long you have been wrong for.

That is not to be interpreted literally, it is figurative. In short, it means that whatever He says is incontrovertibly true.
That is not a "figurative" meaning. It is literally what it says!
"He speaketh the truth and there is no doubt of it"
:rolleyes:
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So you admit that the Bahai god is not a loving god.
Then what is he?
The Baha'i God is a loving God, according to Baha'u'llah. Baha'is believe that God is loving but I cannot believe it since it makes no logical sense to me given all the suffering in this world.
I struggle to believe it and maybe I will believe it before I die.
Sorry, meant Bahaullah.

But this raises another thorny problem. You just claimed that Abdulbaha and Shoghi Effendi had to reinterpret and clarify Bahaullah's writings. But they were just men while he was god's infallible messenger - so how does that work?
They were not supposed to reinterpret anything Baha'u'llah wrote, they were only supposed to interpret it so people could better understand it. Not everyone can understand what Baha'u'llah wrote and the style of language.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If you are wrong, it doesn't matter how long you have been wrong for.
That's true.
That is not a "figurative" meaning. It is literally what it says!
"He speaketh the truth and there is no doubt of it"
:rolleyes:
Yes, that is correct. That is what it means. I did not know that is what you were saying.
Since there is no doubt about it, it means that whatever He says is incontrovertibly true.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
How can they be separated from something that does not exist?
Who said that God does not exist?
If God does not exist, this is a whole different ball game and there is no heaven or hell.
You have claimed that god is not loving, so why would anyone love him back?
I am not claiming that, I just have a hard time believing it.
So think it is better to not believe in god at all than to believe in him but not love him.
That is a good question. I think it is better to believe in God than not believe in God, even if one does not love God. You see, God knows everything so God knows why I cannot love Him and He forgives me.
Do you love your unloving god?
I cannot say that I do, but I am working on it.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
The principles of the Teachings of Baha’u’llah should be carefully studied, one by one, until they are realized and understood by mind and heart — so will you become strong followers of the light, truly spiritual, heavenly soldiers of God, acquiring and spreading the true civilization…. – Abdu’l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 22.

Independent Investigation of Truth

The teaching say, a baha'i should investigate deeply until understood by heart and mind, that means there is no blind faith nor a "read the scripture and blindly believe what you read"


Have been reading the scripture. I read a lot of poetic praise, and vague concepts. No new or even re-worked western/eastern philosophy, no correct or new science? There isn't any mythology or telling stories used to teach lessons using fictive literary devices - parables, allegory, metaphor, ring structure, chisasmus, I believe this was written by a man who was well read. Not a God. Nor was it being written with the help of any deity.
Feel free to link to something you find compelling so I can read it.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Have been reading the scripture. I read a lot of poetic praise, and vague concepts. No new or even re-worked western/eastern philosophy, no correct or new science? There isn't any mythology or telling stories used to teach lessons using fictive literary devices - parables, allegory, metaphor, ring structure, chisasmus, I believe this was written by a man who was well read. Not a God. Nor was it being written with the help of any deity.
Feel free to link to something you find compelling so I can read it.
Not everyone will see a religious/spiritual scriptures as that. Some will not see the truth in it. You may be one of those who do not see truth in religious scriptures.

I have nothing to prove, because I hold a personal belief.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Not everyone will see a religious/spiritual scriptures as that. Some will not see the truth in it. You may be one of those who do not see truth in religious scriptures.

I have nothing to prove, because I hold a personal belief.

And you may not see the truth in the Quran? Or the truth in the Upanishads? Or maybe these are books written by people and I am seeing it correctly. Because any religion or cult can give you scripture and if you say "it doesn't look like these are revelations from a God?" "Actually I think a man wrote this, especially because there literally is no solid prophecy, knowledge beyond what a human could know and it's just spiritual praise" you could just make a claim that I'm not getting the special sorcery magic from it. That is a terrible argument.

Because I see truth no problem? He isn't lying, he says things that are true, like - Consort with the followers of all religions in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship.. Ok, that makes sense?

This is poetry -
These sanctified Mirrors…are, one and all, the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceed their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty.

Poetry doesn't make Gods real.
I think I do see the truth in these scriptures. A well read smart poet wrote a lot. Maybe it's just some people are easily fooled.
Also please spare me the passive aggressive answer. If you are going aggressive, just do it?

"I have nothing to prove, I'm just a believer. Oh, and it's definitely true, you just can't see it......"

Cool, can you demonstrate any evidence? I did ask for a passage that you consider better than average.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
And you may not see the truth in the Quran? Or the truth in the Upanishads? Or maybe these are books written by people and I am seeing it correctly. Because any religion or cult can give you scripture and if you say "it doesn't look like these are revelations from a God?" "Actually I think a man wrote this, especially because there literally is no solid prophecy, knowledge beyond what a human could know and it's just spiritual praise" you could just make a claim that I'm not getting the special sorcery magic from it. That is a terrible argument.

Because I see truth no problem? He isn't lying, he says things that are true, like - Consort with the followers of all religions in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship.. Ok, that makes sense?

This is poetry -
These sanctified Mirrors…are, one and all, the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceed their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty.

Poetry doesn't make Gods real.
I think I do see the truth in these scriptures. A well read smart poet wrote a lot. Maybe it's just some people are easily fooled.
Also please spare me the passive aggressive answer. If you are going aggressive, just do it?

"I have nothing to prove, I'm just a believer. Oh, and it's definitely true, you just can't see it......"

Cool, can you demonstrate any evidence? I did ask for a passage that you consider better than average.
No, I have not a single reason to continue discussion or debate about this.
You don't believe and no matter what "evidence" put forth it going to be rejected.
 
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