Baha'i and Messengers

[CG Didymus]

You’ve missed the point entirely. It’s about when the Jews are finally permitted to return to the Holy Land which was 1844.

The ‘time of the gentiles being ‘fulfilled” refers to the time when the Jews can return to Israel. That began in 1844.

Okay, forget about reading on. I already said this once... If the fulfillment is 1844, then the trampling started 1260 days/years before that? No. Lots of trampling but not in the year you need it to be, 621AD.

The siege of Jerusalem (636–637) was part of the Muslim conquest of the Levant and the result of the military efforts of the Rashidun Caliphate against the Byzantine Empire in the year 636–637/38. It began when the Rashidun army, under the command of Abu Ubaidah, besieged Jerusalem beginning in November 636. After six months, the Patriarch Sophronius agreed to surrender, on condition that he submit only to the Caliph. According to tradition, in 637 or 638, Caliph Umar traveled to Jerusalem in person to receive the submission of the city.​

 

[CG Didymus]

Well, if you are making an argument for God simply based upon how many people He has beat up or killed, then I suppose it could definitely be said that there IS a God. Just don't get Him MAD at you

Sure sounds like some religious leaders made up some invisible enforcer in the sky to keep people from "sinning". Yet... they still dead. Thus, the need for stoning. Now sending lightning bolts to kill a person that had sin that would be something. Killing them before they sinned would really be impressive. Or just rewiring people's brains so they didn't want to sin. But I know God can't do that because he wants people to have free will to sin and hurt and maim and kill whenever they choose to. Then, after they die, God will punish them.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Have you been following this? Revelation does says 1260 days and 42 months and 3 1/2 days which all get made to mean 1260 years. But they also become "lunar" years. And 1844 just happens to be year 1260 in the Islamic calendar which began in the year 621AD with the "flight" of Muhammad, the Hegira.

But there are six different things that get converted into 1260 years. And my problem is that none of them start and stop in 621AD and don't end in 1844. We have the trampling of Jerusalem. Didn't start in 621AD. The Two Witnesses that Baha'i say are Muhammad and Ali. Sure, start them in 621AD. But did they prophecy for 1260 years? Well maybe, except the prophecy says that after they prophesied for 1260 days/years, they were killed a lay in the public square for 3 1/2 days, which also is converted to 1260 years. So, they prophecy and are dead for the same 1260 years, from 621AD to 1844? When Muhammad and Ali didn't die the same year, and they didn't die in 621AD.

Then a woman gives birth and hides in the wilderness for the 1260 days/years. The child, Baha'is say, is The Bab. He declared himself a manifestation in 1844, but he wasn't born then and obviously not in 621AD either. Yet the woman gave birth to him then went to hide in the wilderness? From 621AD to 1844?

Then the beasts and the dragon. Baha'is make them the Umayyads and the Abbasids dynasties. They take over the leadership of Islam but not in 621AD. "Umayyads were the ruling family of the Muslim caliphate between 661 and 750 and later of Islamic Iberia in Europe between 756 and 1031." Then the Abbasids took power in 750AD and then... "The Mongol Khan Hulagu captured and destroyed Baghdad in 1258, thereby ending the Abbasid kingdom."

They didn't start nor end in 621AD and 1844. How it works for Baha'is and convinces them of "fulfilled" prophecy, I don't know? Too many unprovable claims... Wanting peace. Working for peace is one thing, but I don't see how they Baha'is expect of their claims to be accepted as being true.

I see you are trying to make a literal story out of individual points. 1260 is an individual overinding point, that within that expanse of time the revelation of Muhammad unfolded, it is mentioned many times to show it is a very strong point of reference. 1260 was confirmed when William Miller, from an entirely different direction, discovered it was also 1844.

So within 1260 years these events unfolded. Some at the start, some during, some at the end.

Anyway CG, I do see now this is a very big waste of our time. I invite you to come and chat about being part of one human race.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

No. Everyone who has predicted this before you for a different time has had their own litany of verses to quote. No different than you. As earnest as you. As certain as you.
Every. Single. One.
This ain't my first rodeo. Or even my 20th.

Even in that quote from Bill Sears book it doesn't have the seizing or the trampling of Jerusalem happening in 621AD. Which is needed for 1260 lunar years to end up in 1844. So, close though. Which, I guess, is okay when talking about prophecy.

 

[CG Didymus]

No. Everyone who has predicted this before you for a different time has had their own litany of verses to quote. No different than you. As earnest as you. As certain as you.
Every. Single. One.
This ain't my first rodeo. Or even my 20th.

But who's going to get bucked off? Oh, and who are the clowns? You know that "rodeo" analogy is pretty profound.

 

[CG Didymus]

Brian, to be truthful, I am at a time in life when all I see in what you offer is a repeat of the rejection of God's Messengers and to me I now just hear a very frustrating bla bla bla.

In that weakness I am very tired of life, I am tied of religions stating their exclusive doctrines of completeness, when it is very, very, very obvious they are not complete and have not fulfilled their potential. I offer hat is inclusive of Baha'i, as we know Revelation from God will continue and we will also have made mistakes albeit the Baha'i Faith has been given a full thousand years, so we still have time to plant nurture and smell the roses and pick the fruits of that garden.

My guess is that within 100 years, science, reason and sound logic will change people's perspective of faith immensely. I see the universal teachings of the Baha'i Faith (which is also the fruits of all faiths), will become globally accepted and people of all Faiths will have embraced our oneness under one God.

That is the vision I will now on discuss on RF, as exclusive finality is just a continued prompting of our own selfish mind, it is the devil we can be.

I wish you all the best in life and faith and the challenges we all face ahead of us, which will most likely make the world wars seem tame, as oppression will come from every direction, from in front, from behind, the left, the right, up above and below and all other directions.

".......Say: God sufficeth unto me; He is the One Who holdeth in His grasp the kingdom of all things. Through the power of His hosts of heaven and earth and whatever lieth between them, He protecteth whomsoever among His servants He willeth. God, in truth, keepeth watch over all things.

Immeasurably exalted art Thou, O Lord! Protect us from what lieth in front of us and behind us, above our heads, on our right, on our left, below our feet and every other side to which we are exposed. Verily, Thy protection over all things is unfailing."

The Báb

Regards Tony

Good luck Tony. I think that suits you much better. Baha'is are getting nowhere trying to prove the unprovable. What can the Baha'i Faith do? What is the Baha'i Faith doing? Is it promoting peace? Is it uniting people? Then tell me about those things. Where you going to post your threads at?

 

[Sundance]

I don't suspect that Baha'is believe the story really happened, but if it did, then God put the tree right there in the middle of the garden. The fruit looked and smelled good. Then God allowed or maybe even put the serpent there knowing that the serpent could and will tempt Eve and her to take a bite of the fruit. And she could get Adam to try it too. God knew. But it's just a story.

But if a parent did something similar to their kids, what would we think? They have a camera recording it and hide behind a see-through mirror. They told their kids don't eat the cookies we put right in front of you on the table... you'll spoil your dinner. They leave. A knock on the door. It's their aunt. She says, "Oh my what delicious looking cookies. Why aren't you eating them?" "Mom and Dad said not to. It will spoil our appetite for dinner." "Oh, is that so. Listen, what is it going to hurt to just eat one?' So, the kids eat one. The parents come out and say, "We told you not to eat the cookies. You disobeyed us. You can't be trusted." "But Auntie said it was okay." "Is she your boss? Does she make the rules around here? You kids will have no dinner tonight. And from now on, your aunt is not allowed to see you. You will have to do chores before you get any food. This you brought on yourselves for disobeying."

It was a setup, a trap. God knew just like the parents knew the kids would fail. Why put a tempter and the temptation right in front of them? But if the Bible story is just a fictional story, what was it trying to convey? Obey God at all times and don't give in to temptations? But in the story Adam did fail and caused God to have to curse him and the world. Which then is used to explain why the world is so messed up.

That’s the thing, though. In the story, Adam and Eve were placed in a garden with lots of other trees, not just the one.

So, if your analogy had correctly reflected the situation, the mother should’ve made all sorts of foods, with the cookies in the middle, saying “don’t eat these, or you’ll ruin your appetite.”


If God gave Adam and Eve many different trees to eat from, but He told them don’t eat from one, then really it doesn’t matter what God knew or didn’t know as to what they were going to do. He doesn’t control human choice. Like the child’s parents. He gave them lots of choices, but (again) they chose to eat from the same tree He explicitly said don’t eat from.

The story has a couple of different messages, but the main one is:

In every moral or ethical decision, there’s right and wrong. Wisdom and Folly. Use Wisdom, do right.

 

[CG Didymus]

No. And I'm almost afraid to go back and look now. Looks like you detailed it out pretty well. Have you gotten any satisfactory explanations?

You're caught up enough. You know the answers will never be satisfactory.

Here is where Abdul Baha claims all these thing... Some Answered Questions. He has two chapter where he gives the interpretation on Revelation 11 and 12. In there you find him saying the Three Woes are Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah. The Two Witnesses are Muhammad and Ali. Plus, all the 1260 day prophecies start with the Hegira and end in 1844 when the Bab declared himself. And also, that the Umayyad and Abbasids are the dragon and the beasts.

For a Baha'i why doubt it? But how seriously did they look into it to verify it? This other book by Bill Sears, A Thief in the Night, is all Baha'i. Everything turns up to fit perfectly into everything Baha'i. He was a Baha'i, though. So, did he write this before or after he was a Baha'i? Anyway, he ended up being in a high position in the Baha'i Faith, a "Hand of the Cause." Not bad huh?

I did a quick search and Bill Sears had a dream where he saw Abdul Baha. So, the book was his "investigation", but he already had a connection and knowledge of the Baha'i Faith.

 

[CG Didymus]

I see you are trying to make a literal story out of individual points. 1260 is an individual overinding point, that within that expanse of time the revelation of Muhammad unfolded, it is mentioned many times to show it is a very strong point of reference. 1260 was confirmed when William Miller, from an entirely different direction, discovered it was also 1844.

So within 1260 years these events unfolded. Some at the start, some during, some at the end.

Anyway CG, I do see now this is a very big waste of our time. I invite you to come and chat about being part of one human race.

Regards Tony

Yes, much better to chat about that. You know I don't believe in where William Miller started the 2300 day prophecy. To me, it has nothing to do with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, but everything to do when the daily sacrifice was stopped and the abomination set up.

 

[CG Didymus]

That’s the thing, though. In the story, Adam and Eve were placed in a garden with lots of other trees, not just the one.

So, if your analogy had correctly reflected the situation, the mother should’ve made all sorts of foods, with the cookies in the middle, saying “don’t eat these, or you’ll ruin your appetite.”


If God gave Adam and Eve many different trees to eat from, but He told them don’t eat from one, then really it doesn’t matter what God knew or didn’t know as to what they were going to do. He doesn’t control human choice. Like the child’s parents. He gave them lots of choices, but (again) they chose to eat from the same tree He explicitly said don’t eat from.

The story has a couple of different messages, but the main one is:

In every moral or ethical decision, there’s right and wrong. Wisdom and Folly. Use Wisdom, do right.

And in the end, we both probably don't believe this event ever actually happened. Along with use wisdom and do right, there's is also the threat that God knows all and will punish you for making the wrong decision. That fear factor from an all-knowing, wrathful God is an important part of the story. Lots of stories that have God punishing people for making the wrong decision.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, much better to chat about that. You know I don't believe in where William Miller started the 2300 day prophecy. To me, it has nothing to do with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, but everything to do when the daily sacrifice was stopped and the abomination set up.

I see the number one essential teaching of Baha’u’llah is Oneness, so I just started an OP on that aspect of life.

Oneness

That is also the key component of the Bahai teaching about the Manifestations, Messengers, Prophets of God, they are essentials One. They are the One Spirit, the One mind in each individual.

So all their names blend back into One, their purpose the same One Purpose, suited to the age.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

And what is this blah-blah about 1844?
"In 1844, Jews constituted the largest population group in Jerusalem." History of Israel - Wikipedia
Do the Bahais mean that all those Jews entered Jerusalem in 1844? Jerusalem was under Ottoman rule in 1844. It was not ruled by Jews.

It's all part of fulfilling prophecy. They have to make Kalki and Maitreya also return in 1844. That has to be even more creative.

But... what they do have. 1260 is the year 1844 on the Islamic calendar. The Edict of Toleration in 1844 let Jews do what? Oh no... What's going on?

The Edict of Toleration is a name used in William Sears' book, Thief in the Night. According to Mr. Sears, the "Edict of Toleration" was issued by the Ottoman authorities in the year 1844. It has been interpreted in some circles to mean that the Turkish authorities were prepared to allow any Jews who so wished, to dwell in Palestine. As the number of Bahá'ís grew, there came more frequent requests for elucidation as to where this document could be found, and a rumour subsequently circulated among the Bahá'ís that there was no such thing. William Sears obtained the references to it from a Christian writer while he was preparing "Thief in the Night", and it was assumed by quite a number of Bahá'ís that the whole story of the "Edict" was a misunderstanding.​

A question in a Baha'i forum...

The 1844 edict of toleration is supposed to mark the end of "the time of the gentiles". Apparently, Jews would be able to return to their homeland as a sovereign nation. This edict is important to the Bahai faith because it marks the time when the Second coming of Christ is expected. That is, at the end of "the time of the gentiles, Christ would come". It is said that the edict of toleration was made in 1844 and this is the date that the Bahai Faith was born.

Unfortunately, I've tried to find out about this momentous occassion for Jews in Judaic and many other encyclopaedia but with no success.
​

I think this is something that the Baha'is will need to clear up. What is the truth about the Edict of Toleration? I'm having a hard enough time believing them. I hope that they can at least verify their beliefs about the Edict of Toleration.

​

 

[CG Didymus]

I suppose a problem with Baha'u'llah being the glory of God is that Jesus is shown in the Bible to be the glory of God.

I still have a problem with the "Lamb". To me, it sounds like Jesus. To Baha'is... maybe The Bab? Why wouldn't there be a definite answer from Baha'u'llah himself? But then, since so many people are added into the list of "Christs" and "Messiahs", then for Revelation to be accurate there should be several Lambs, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah along with Jesus. But I find it strange that they don't even bother with the Lamb and instead make Baha'u'llah the "Father".

 

[CG Didymus]

I see the number one essential teaching of Baha’u’llah is Oneness, so I just started an OP on that aspect of life.

Oneness

That is also the key component of the Bahai teaching about the Manifestations, Messengers, Prophets of God, they are essentials One. They are the One Spirit, the One mind in each individual.

So all their names blend back into One, their purpose the same One Purpose, suited to the age.

Regards Tony

I'll see you there. Hope it does well.

 

[Brian2]

I still have a problem with the "Lamb". To me, it sounds like Jesus. To Baha'is... maybe The Bab? Why wouldn't there be a definite answer from Baha'u'llah himself? But then, since so many people are added into the list of "Christs" and "Messiahs", then for Revelation to be accurate there should be several Lambs, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah along with Jesus. But I find it strange that they don't even bother with the Lamb and instead make Baha'u'llah the "Father".

You seem to have studies Baha'i more than I have.
I find it interesting that in Daniel 7:13,14 the Baha'is want Baha'u'llah to be the "one like a son of man" but it seems that one of the titles of Baha'u'llah is the "Ancient of Days".
Baha'u'llah it seems has taken over. He is Jesus and is the Father and gives the Holy Spirit (or IS the Holy Spirit if John 14:26, 15:26 are correct).

 

[Truthseeker]

I really am sorry to say, but your response all boils down to "I said so, so there". Ok, as you say then.....tnx

I derive this from my Faith, it is partly my interpretation of my Faith, but it isn't all me.

 

[Brian2]

It's all part of fulfilling prophecy. They have to make Kalki and Maitreya also return in 1844. That has to be even more creative.

But... what they do have. 1260 is the year 1844 on the Islamic calendar. The Edict of Toleration in 1844 let Jews do what? Oh no... What's going on?

The Edict of Toleration is a name used in William Sears' book, Thief in the Night. According to Mr. Sears, the "Edict of Toleration" was issued by the Ottoman authorities in the year 1844. It has been interpreted in some circles to mean that the Turkish authorities were prepared to allow any Jews who so wished, to dwell in Palestine. As the number of Bahá'ís grew, there came more frequent requests for elucidation as to where this document could be found, and a rumour subsequently circulated among the Bahá'ís that there was no such thing. William Sears obtained the references to it from a Christian writer while he was preparing "Thief in the Night", and it was assumed by quite a number of Bahá'ís that the whole story of the "Edict" was a misunderstanding.​

A question in a Baha'i forum...

The 1844 edict of toleration is supposed to mark the end of "the time of the gentiles". Apparently, Jews would be able to return to their homeland as a sovereign nation. This edict is important to the Bahai faith because it marks the time when the Second coming of Christ is expected. That is, at the end of "the time of the gentiles, Christ would come". It is said that the edict of toleration was made in 1844 and this is the date that the Bahai Faith was born.

Unfortunately, I've tried to find out about this momentous occassion for Jews in Judaic and many other encyclopaedia but with no success.
​

I think this is something that the Baha'is will need to clear up. What is the truth about the Edict of Toleration? I'm having a hard enough time believing them. I hope that they can at least verify their beliefs about the Edict of Toleration.

That's interesting. I had read that the Edict had not been of great import for the Jews moving back to Palestine and that other Government initiatives had been more important.
From this site it looks as if the Edict was not about the Jews at all but about a promise from the Ottoman Empire to the British and French Embassies promising to cease the execution of apostates from Islam.
It says nothing else about it.
Edict of toleration - Wikipedia.

Luke 21:24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations. And Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

When I look at the prophecy above also I notice that it is speaking about Jerusalem (Which is still trodden under the feet of the Gentiles to an extent) and the Baha'is want to use that word "Jerusalem" as meaning the whole of Israel.
But of course Baha'i need the edict to be about the Jews or Baha'u'llah is not whom he claims.

 

[CG Didymus]

That's interesting. I had read that the Edict had not been of great import for the Jews moving back to Palestine and that other Government initiatives had been more important.
From this site it looks as if the Edict was not about the Jews at all but about a promise from the Ottoman Empire to the British and French Embassies promising to cease the execution of apostates from Islam.
It says nothing else about it.
Edict of toleration - Wikipedia.

Luke 21:24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations. And Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

When I look at the prophecy above also I notice that it is speaking about Jerusalem (Which is still trodden under the feet of the Gentiles to an extent) and the Baha'is want to use that word "Jerusalem" as meaning the whole of Israel.
But of course Baha'i need the edict to be about the Jews or Baha'u'llah is not whom he claims.

And the "Edict" and William Miller both give Baha'is something to back up 1844 as being the year of the return. But ii is the Bab not Baha'u'llah. It would be like prophecies about the Messiah all pointed to John the Baptist.

About the Edict, I really thought that I'd find a copy of it online. I hope one of the Baha'i can clear that up. As it stands now, William Sears took it and made it the fulfillment of the times of the Gentiles. Which, I asked, then if we go back 1260 years from 1844 do we get the time when the trampling first started? No, we get the Hegira. There are just too many almosts. Almost the right year is not good enough.

 

[Brian2]

I still have a problem with the "Lamb". To me, it sounds like Jesus. To Baha'is... maybe The Bab? Why wouldn't there be a definite answer from Baha'u'llah himself? But then, since so many people are added into the list of "Christs" and "Messiahs", then for Revelation to be accurate there should be several Lambs, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah along with Jesus. But I find it strange that they don't even bother with the Lamb and instead make Baha'u'llah the "Father".

I find it interesting that you find so many basic things wrong with Baha'i and still seem to not be convinced it is wrong.

In the context of the Gospel and who Jesus is said to be and the context of the New Testament, which is about Jesus and knows nothing of anyone else returning, the Lamb is Jesus, the one who was slain (Rev 13:8) the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.(John 1:29)
Obviously false Christs and false prophets will want to fit themselves into the Bible somehow but the plain teaching of the Bible is that it is Jesus personally who is coming back.
Baha'u'llah fits the description of a false Christ.

 

[Brian2]

And the "Edict" and William Miller both give Baha'is something to back up 1844 as being the year of the return. But ii is the Bab not Baha'u'llah. It would be like prophecies about the Messiah all pointed to John the Baptist.

Miller gives something to Baha'is because they ignore the fact that Jesus said He would come back when we did not expect. We do not know when and will not.
From what we can see of the Edict it also should not give anything to Baha'is.
Baha'is grasp at straws that they cannot breathe through and ignore gaping holes in their theology and don't even bother trying to explain those gaping holes.

About the Edict, I really thought that I'd find a copy of it online. I hope one of the Baha'i can clear that up. As it stands now, William Sears took it and made it the fulfillment of the times of the Gentiles. Which, I asked, then if we go back 1260 years from 1844 do we get the time when the trampling first started? No, we get the Hegira. There are just too many almosts. Almost the right year is not good enough.

1260 just happens to be a number that starts somewhere and ends somewhere else and covers 1260 years. The beginning and end have nothing to do with what the Bible say will happen at those times.
The 1260 as I have said before is literally 1260 days (3.5 years)