ppp
Well-Known Member
The simplest answer is no one.Sorry.
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Baha'i and Messengers
- Thread starter ppp
- Start date
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
And what is this blah-blah about 1844?You mean there were no Jews in the area which constitutes Israel today prior to 1844? That is a silly idea. That is what happens when you believe these false prophecies blindly.
"In 1844, Jews constituted the largest population group in Jerusalem." History of Israel - Wikipedia
Do the Bahais mean that all those Jews entered Jerusalem in 1844? Jerusalem was under Ottoman rule in 1844. It was not ruled by Jews.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You are free to believe that but you don't know that.
There is nothing to be sorry about because I know what the answer is and it does not matter to me is anyone believes it.
ppp
Well-Known Member
Not for any meaningful definition of 'know'.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Definitions of words do not change the truth. You either recognize it or not.
Brian2
Veteran Member
I suppose a problem with Baha'u'llah being the glory of God is that Jesus is shown in the Bible to be the glory of God.
Brian2
Veteran Member
I would say that Jesus probably knows when He is coming back now but not at the time He said those words, when He was a man on earth, living as a man and relying of His Father for all He knew and said and did etc.
I think it is easy to confound ourselves with the idea that Jesus is God and the Father is God and so they must be one and the same, like unitarians might believe.
The trinity is that the Son has been the Son from eternity and comes from the Father but is not the Father. (something like our children come from us but are not us but have the same nature as we do and so are equal in nature to us, even though in a perfect world we might submit to our parents as Jesus submits to His Father, esp now as a human also)
Brian2
Veteran Member
I don't think that John 14:26, 15:26 or John 14:16 can be used legitimately by Baha'is unless they say it does not actually mean what it says.
John 14: 16 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.…
John 14:25 All this I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.
John 15:26 When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father— the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father— He will testify about Me.
For a start they show that the Spirit of Truth is the Comforter and the Holy Spirit which was given at Pentecost. (Baha'u'llah is not the Holy Spirit)
Then it shows that the Spirit of Truth etc is promised by Jesus to His disciples, those people who were there 2000 years ago and that they would be reminded of what Jesus had said to them.
It is amazing, if not surprising, that Baha'is can point to those passages as if they show something about the legitimacy of Baha'u'llah when in fact those passages show that Baha'u'llah is NOT whom he claims to be.
So what happened to the 'Spirit of Truth'?
Which division of Christianity portrays naught but that Truth?
Regards Tony
Brian2
Veteran Member
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
Brian said: Jesus while speaking to His disciples said John 16:16 In a little while you will see Me no more, and then after a little while you will see Me.”
Ace said: Yes, just like that one, just for example.....then we have this:
The reason I said that is because Trailblazer loves to use the fact that Jesus said "the world will see me no more" to mean that Jesus is not coming back, but as you can see that phrase "see me no more" does not necessarily mean that.
And He also did say He would come back at John 14:3 plus all the other times when He said the Son of Man would come to just people and identifying Himself as the Son of Man who would do that at John 5:22.
Not everyone did see Jesus when He rose from the dead, mainly His disciples, so Rev 1:7 cannot be about that.
And yes there are a couple of verses which seem to say that Jesus will come back soon. Matt 24:34 would mean that the generation which saw those signs would not pass away till all those things happened, including Jesus return.
Matt 16:28 and related passages in the synoptics seem to be speaking about the transfiguration which happened about a week later.
Jesus return is what the first century church did teach however, and they should know,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and even Jesus spoke of His return to judge the earth.
Brian2
Veteran Member
You always say that and I always point to John 14:3 and you always keep denying Jesus said He would come back.
John 14:3
The Ancient of Days gave the Kingdom to the one like a son of man so the Kingdom is a heavenly one. It's origin is in heaven and it includes ruling over the earth. But it is not like one of the Kingdoms set up by humans on earth, the kingdoms of the earth have become heavenly at that time in that...................
Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever.”
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-116.html.utf8?query=cause|of|god&action=highlight#gr5
Jesus was resurrected in His spiritual body and that is the body His disciples saw ascend and get taken out of sight into the clouds (Acts 1) and it is the same body Jesus will return with.
John 16:16 Jesus went on to say, “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”
This verse should show you that "you will see me no more" does not mean that they would never see Jesus again,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,so all your use of that phrase to show that Jesus is not coming back is shown to be false reasoning.
The angel did say that they had seen Jesus go up into heaven. But why were they still staring when Jesus had gone out of sight into the clouds?
Certainly nothing in the passage about a Spirit ascending.
But saying that Acts 1 was not written by Jesus is not reasonable since Jesus did not write any of the gospels.
Brian2
Veteran Member
In the Bible the Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit who came to the disciples at Pentecost.
What are you trying to say, that Christians should all be perfect and know everything if they have the Spirit of Truth?
Maybe you are saying that Baha'i is perfect in truth.
2000 years is a long time for people to attack the truth and Satan has done a good job.
As Jesus said, "Will the Son of Man find faith when He comes" (Luke 18:8)
Your Son of Man came to start a new faith, Jesus will come to look for faith in Himself.
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Brian2
Veteran Member
Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
WHAT, is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel?
It is the last days which was indicated by the outpouring of the Spirit.
The last days began then at Pentecost.
But those signs have not been fulfilled yet except in small amounts in a few places. Nothing big, Baha'i just wants to point to any little thing to prove that Baha'u'llah is the return of Jesus.
Yes it is John, who knows it is to be the Lord Jesus who will return, and he knows it is Jesus who testified those things.
Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
What I am saying is the prophecy was not fulfilled at Pentecost and the world in no way reflected it had.
It is more a case now of the dead burying the dead.
Regards Tony
Brian2
Veteran Member
Acts 2:15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’
Peter said that what happened that day was spoken by the prophet Joel.
Obviously not everything in the prophecy happened on that day but the pouring out of the Spirit did and it does show that even back then the last days had begun.
Do you think that the Spirit (the one that Jesus calls the Comforter and the Spirit of Truth) was not poured out at Pentecost? or is it just the Comforter and Spirit of Truth that you think was not poured out then?
Actually it says that 3000 were added to the number of disciples that day. This points to the 3000 who were killed at the first Pentecost when Moses came down from the Mountain with the Law.
The giving of the Spirit was akin to the giving of the Law in the Moses Covenant. Instead of following the precepts of the Law Christians are to learn to be led by the Spirit.
Muhammad and Baha'u'llah seem to want to go back to precepts of law, not realising that being led by the Spirit applies in all circumstances in life and is so much better than precepts of a law.
Jeremiah 31:33; Jeremiah 32:39–40; Ezekiel 11:19; Ezekiel 36:26–27; Deuteronomy 10:16
This New Covenant is an everlasting Covenant.
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Okay, in 1844 the time of the Gentiles was fulfilled. Then does that mean that in 621AD is when the Jews were led away captive and Jerusalem trodden down?
"Christ" and the time of his return? Which Christ? Muhammad, The Bab or Baha'u'llah? Out of those three who is the one given the mission to bring peace and unity and to fulfill all the prophecies? Did Muhammad or The Bab fulfill all the prophecies and bring God's teachings that would usher in peace? In fact, The Bab is hardly mentioned by Baha'is. Yet, 1844 becomes the big year. The return of Christ year. But it was the forerunner of the one whom God will make manifest. The Bab was not the main guy. So, "a Christ" came in 1844. But The Christ, The Messiah was Baha'u'llah according to Baha'i beliefs.
And I only know of one prophecy from Daniel that Baha'is make end in the year Baha'u'llah declared. And with that prophecy Baha'is had to go back 10 years from the Hegira in 621AD then add 1290 lunar years to it to make it come out on the right year. That's too arbitrary. Baha'is have been using 621AD for all of them, then this one they push back 10 years.
But the 1290 days is tied in with the 1335 days. And Baha'is do all sorts of things to this one.
The "days must be reckoned as solar and not lunar years".
The Tablets suggest that the prophecy is fulfilled by two different dates. The first derives from the centenary of the Declaration of Bahá'u'lláh; the second is calculated from 622 A.D. -- hence, 1963 and 1957.
So, what do "prophecies" prove? Nothing. They can be manipulated and interpreted too many ways to make anything become a fulfillment. But it's not just Baha'is... Let's take this one from Matthew...The Tablets suggest that the prophecy is fulfilled by two different dates. The first derives from the centenary of the Declaration of Bahá'u'lláh; the second is calculated from 622 A.D. -- hence, 1963 and 1957.
Matt. 2:18 “A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more.”
And that's a prophecy about Herod having the baby boys killed?
16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. 17 Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:
Jeremiah 31:14 I will fill the souls of the priests abundantly, and will fill My people with My goodness,” declares the LORD. 15This is what the LORD says: “A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children, and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more.” 16This is what the LORD says: “Keep your voice from weeping and your eyes from tears, for the reward for your work will come, declares the LORD. Then your children will return from the land of the enemy.…
It has nothing to do with a prophesy about Herod killing baby boys. The children in Jeremiah are not killed, they've been taken captive and God says not to cry... They will be returned. So, anybody can take a verse out of context and claim it is a prophecy about anything... Even a gospel writer. And even Abdul Baha'. Christians believe Matthew. And Baha'is believe Abdul Baha'. But I think they both took verses and made them fit into whatever they wanted them to fit into.
Brian, to be truthful, I am at a time in life when all I see in what you offer is a repeat of the rejection of God's Messengers and to me I now just hear a very frustrating bla bla bla.
In that weakness I am very tired of life, I am tied of religions stating their exclusive doctrines of completeness, when it is very, very, very obvious they are not complete and have not fulfilled their potential. I offer hat is inclusive of Baha'i, as we know Revelation from God will continue and we will also have made mistakes albeit the Baha'i Faith has been given a full thousand years, so we still have time to plant nurture and smell the roses and pick the fruits of that garden.
My guess is that within 100 years, science, reason and sound logic will change people's perspective of faith immensely. I see the universal teachings of the Baha'i Faith (which is also the fruits of all faiths), will become globally accepted and people of all Faiths will have embraced our oneness under one God.
That is the vision I will now on discuss on RF, as exclusive finality is just a continued prompting of our own selfish mind, it is the devil we can be.
I wish you all the best in life and faith and the challenges we all face ahead of us, which will most likely make the world wars seem tame, as oppression will come from every direction, from in front, from behind, the left, the right, up above and below and all other directions.
".......Say: God sufficeth unto me; He is the One Who holdeth in His grasp the kingdom of all things. Through the power of His hosts of heaven and earth and whatever lieth between them, He protecteth whomsoever among His servants He willeth. God, in truth, keepeth watch over all things.
Immeasurably exalted art Thou, O Lord! Protect us from what lieth in front of us and behind us, above our heads, on our right, on our left, below our feet and every other side to which we are exposed. Verily, Thy protection over all things is unfailing."
The Báb
Regards Tony
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Have you been following this? Revelation does says 1260 days and 42 months and 3 1/2 days which all get made to mean 1260 years. But they also become "lunar" years. And 1844 just happens to be year 1260 in the Islamic calendar which began in the year 621AD with the "flight" of Muhammad, the Hegira.
But there are six different things that get converted into 1260 years. And my problem is that none of them start and stop in 621AD and don't end in 1844. We have the trampling of Jerusalem. Didn't start in 621AD. The Two Witnesses that Baha'i say are Muhammad and Ali. Sure, start them in 621AD. But did they prophecy for 1260 years? Well maybe, except the prophecy says that after they prophesied for 1260 days/years, they were killed a lay in the public square for 3 1/2 days, which also is converted to 1260 years. So, they prophecy and are dead for the same 1260 years, from 621AD to 1844? When Muhammad and Ali didn't die the same year, and they didn't die in 621AD.
Then a woman gives birth and hides in the wilderness for the 1260 days/years. The child, Baha'is say, is The Bab. He declared himself a manifestation in 1844, but he wasn't born then and obviously not in 621AD either. Yet the woman gave birth to him then went to hide in the wilderness? From 621AD to 1844?
Then the beasts and the dragon. Baha'is make them the Umayyads and the Abbasids dynasties. They take over the leadership of Islam but not in 621AD. "Umayyads were the ruling family of the Muslim caliphate between 661 and 750 and later of Islamic Iberia in Europe between 756 and 1031." Then the Abbasids took power in 750AD and then... "The Mongol Khan Hulagu captured and destroyed Baghdad in 1258, thereby ending the Abbasid kingdom."
They didn't start nor end in 621AD and 1844. How it works for Baha'is and convinces them of "fulfilled" prophecy, I don't know? Too many unprovable claims... Wanting peace. Working for peace is one thing, but I don't see how they Baha'is expect of their claims to be accepted as being true.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Oh, thanks. I guess you have been following it. I'll read on and see what else has been said.
ppp
Well-Known Member
No. And I'm almost afraid to go back and look now. Looks like you detailed it out pretty well. Have you gotten any satisfactory explanations?