Baha'i and Messengers

[TransmutingSoul]

Then I repeat that the claimed not-literal number is is few in comparison to the billions of humans who have lived.

In a different frame of reference, yet it is easier to see it how you suggest.

From a Baha'i perspective each Manifestation contains all creation they have been given to deliver the Message to, the millions are contained in the One Manifestation.

It is like creation is the atoms in the Sun, so the One Messnger Contains an incalculable number, much like this;

"The atomic mass of hydrogen (the majority of the sun's mass) is 1.00794 which means a mole — 6.022 × 10^23 atoms — of hydrogen weighs 1.00794 grams. So converting the sun's weight to grams gives us 1.989 × 10^33 g. That means there are 1.973317 X 10^33 moles of hydrogen in the sun or ~1.1883315 × 10^57 atoms.

The billions do not exist without the sun, yet we can look at it from the other direction, the billions can look back at the One that contains and gives life and say the sun is the smaller number.

Regards Tony

 

[Sheldon]

As a Bahai I can only offer what has been interpreted by either Baha’u’llah or Abdu’l-Baha.

So much for free will....

 

[Trailblazer]

Look, I have explained several times, in detail, with examples, how the Abrahamic god removes free will.
If all you are going to do is keep repeating "But We Have Free Will!", without any further explanation then you might as well not bother.

God does not remove free will but God does not always allow free will choices to unfold. In other words, we might want to do something but that does not mean we can always do it. Here is my definition of free will:

Free will is simply the will/ability to make choices based upon our desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free they are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints such as capability and opportunity. However, we can make choices as otherwise we would just be like pre-programmed robots.

However, some things are fated by God and we have no choice in the matter, but all things are not fated by God; we can make some choices, including moral choices.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 248

Man is compelled to endure them because God set it up that way since we live in a material world where many things happen are beyond our control. You will not catch me defending God for suffering many people endure that was not their doing as that would be illogical.

 

[Sheldon]

That is why Baha'i education concentrates on the capacity of each child, it is constructed to enable them to be empowered to make their own well-informed choices.

It's indoctrination, a well worn and tested method for religions to create unquestioning automatons from children.

 

[CG Didymus]

I think there are many who already are. Authoritarian leaders tend to be sociopaths, against democracy, and greedy for power.


There's a lot of manipulative leaders and wealthy people out there, and they can easily dupe and manipulate the weak. This is why I mentioned Baha'i should be secular and focus on mental health as a way to create more reasonable global citizens.

What we need is a benevolent, all-powerful, just ruler over us. Oh yeah, we have one, God. What happened?

Rev 21:3... “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur.​

False advertising? 'Cause instead, it wasn't Jesus or God that came. It was a man from Persia, and he got thrown in jail. Tears didn't get wiped away. There's been more death and destruction and the old things haven't passed away. But theoretically, he left a plan to establish peace on Earth. Which is actually plan B. Because the first plan, to get all the rulers of the world to subordinate themselves to him, didn't work. But the rulers were supposed to be gone and done away with?

Rev 19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war... 14 The armies of heaven were following him...15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter...

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
​

Now that's how you take care of evil kings and rulers. No messin' around.

 

[Trailblazer]

Circular logic. If we don't have the ego, we wouldn't have to overcome it.
Also remember that the ego that god created us with is what prevents billions of people from seeing the truth of god.
What was the point of that? Doesn't god want people to know his truth?

If we did not have an ego, we would not have a self. How would that work? we would have no identity.
The ego is an 'attachment' to our own self and ideas and that can be overcome if we put our mind to it.

What is the perfect meaning of ego?

1 : the self especially as contrasted with another self or the world.

Ego Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

Did God create us with an ego? I don't think so. Rather I think the ego (sense of self) develops over the course of our life, as do our prejudices that prevent us from seeing the truth about God.

You are correct in saying that it is the ego that prevents billions of people from seeing the truth of God. That includes any prejudices we might have including attachment to what we already believe. That is explained in the following Tablet of Baha'u'llah.

Tablet of the True Seeker

How can we discover the truth if we are unable to look beyond what we have already determined must be the case? For example, an atheist I know has concluded that God would never use Messengers, as if he could ever know that, so he scoffs at the very idea of Messengers. However, if God uses Messengers to communicate that is the reality, and he will never know that God exists or anything about God if he refuses to even entertain that possibility.

And again, unless we accept the teachings of your particular version of god, how do we even know that we have an ego preventing us from seeing the truth? Remember that the ego is preventing us from accepting those teachings.
And round we go again...

All religions teach about the ego in one way or another so that is how we know, by looking at the teachings of those religions.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So much for free will....

Yes it is a great gift.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It's indoctrination, a well worn and tested method for religions to create unquestioning automatons from children.

Yes, with the best education available.

Of course it is one's choice to see it otherwise.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

To me, the existence of God is as clear as the sun. So obvious that no proof is necessary. But God is not a physical Being so one cannot see Him with the physical senses.

When you say, "God" and a born-again Christian says, "God", they aren't thinking of the same thing. Yet, both are sure that the "God" they believe in is real.

Some concepts of "God" are, hopefully, no longer believed. Like worshipping him and offering him sacrifices. And today, that Christian concept of a three-part "God" is something Islam and the Baha'i Faith don't believe is true.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Now that's how you take care of evil kings and rulers. No messin' around.

A literal interpretation of those passages would mean no life would be left.

Baha'u'llah took care of those kings and rulers, where are their dynasties now?

Baha'u'llah still is King.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Good luck with that!
People are generally becoming less religions. On this forum alone there are more people rejecting your stories than accepting them.
Obviously, the uneducated and the gullible might well switch from the religion they were born into to Baha'i if it sounds better, but that's a pretty low bar.

This forum is not representative of the general population. For one thing it is comprised of as many atheists and agnostics as believers, and that is not representative of the population at large.

People are only becoming less religious in certain countries like the United States, Canada, and northern Europe mostly because they are leaving Christianity, but religion is on the rise globally, and statistics show that.

Since the year 2000, religion has made resurgence whereas atheism and agnosticism are on the decline.

The growth rates of the Abrahamic religions from 1910-2010 were as follows: Judaism .11%, Christianity 1.32%, Islam 1.97%, and Baha’i Faith 3.54%.

Atheism was growing at a rate of 6.54% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.05% from 2000-2010. Agnosticism was growing at a rate of 5.45% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.32% from 2000-2010. That demonstrates that both atheism and agnosticism are on the decline but also that there are many more agnostics than atheists.

Statistics from: Growth of religion - Wikipedia

Christianity is growing in certain countries like China so Christians falsely believe that Christianity is going to make a resurgence, but that is not what statistics show worldwide. Islam is projected to overtake Christianity by the middle of this century. Moreover, people in many countries are leaving Christianity in droves, and that accounts for most atheists, except the few atheists who were born into an atheist family, and that is much more common in Europe than the U.S.

Atheism growing? No, atheism is actually on the decline!

16 March 2016, 07:56

Atheism is not growing despite what atheists may say. Real surveys and statistics say atheism is on the decline worldwide. Sorry atheists but atheism is not on the rise nor is it winning. It's still the minority and a declining one at that.

The Pew Research Center's statistics show that atheism is expected to continue to decline all the way into 2050 with a continued growth of religion. Other research also shows a huge surge in growth for Christianity in China which is currently the world's most "atheist" nation because of the atheist communist government suppressing religion, the research suggests that China will soon become the world's most Christian nation within 15 years.

This is simply history repeating itself: Christianity prospered in Rome back in the ancient era when it was suppressed and it still grew in the militant atheist soviet Russia when it was suppressed there only a century ago with the majority of Russians today now also identifying as Christian. Just goes to show that atheist suppression of religion still doesn't stop religion.

Sources:

The Future of World Religions: Population Growth Projections, 2010-2050
Religiously Unaffiliated
China on course to become 'world's most Christian nation' within 15 years
http://masterrussian.com/russia/facts.htm

Atheism growing? No, atheism is actually on the decline!

 

[CG Didymus]

There’s so much we do not know about our past. So really we can’t say anything for certain about it except what recent Manifestations have told us.

That's the problem... What have the recent manifestations, Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah, told us about Hinduism?

 

[Trailblazer]

You do realise that this position negates free will?

No, of course you don't. Cognitive dissonance means you can happily hold contradictory positions at the same time, blithely unaware of the implications.

I said: I have no way of knowing what is going to happen in the future but I don't really care because I live fully in the present. Whatever will happen will happen and it will be what God has foreordained.

What I said absolutely does not negate individual free will. What God has foreordained from the beginning of time for humanity as a whole is being carried out by humans who are making choices to carry it out as I type this post. It would never get done if humans did not have free will to choose to do it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Someone on here (Trailblazer) claimed they knew Baha'i was the truth because they had done independent research. When I pressed for the sources for this "research', I was shown a propaganda piece written by a Baha'i writer.

No, that is not what happened. What you call a "propaganda piece" was only the explanation of what Baha'is mean by individual investigation of truth, it had nothing to do with "sources" of information about the Baha'i Faith.

 

[Trailblazer]

So your god is not omnipotent. He can't do even a simple trick like make his existence known other than by communications that could easily be hallucinations, delusions or other psychotic events generated within an individual's brain. Communications that are literally impossible to verify.

God did put in an appearance when He manifested Himself in the Manifestations of God, what I usually refer to as Messengers. That is how God made His existence known. Of course God is not known to people who have not recognized the Messengers but so what? That is not God's fault as God did His due diligence.

You really have not thought this through have you? How would anyone ever "verify" that ANY communication came from God?

If God spoke to people directly how could they ever know it was God and not a hallucination, delusion, or other psychotic event generated within their brain? If God spoke from the sky as another atheist on this forum said He should, how could we ever know it was actually God speaking and not an alien?

 

[CG Didymus]

Don’t worry CG. I’ll be there in my overalls to clean your backyard and toilets. Lol.

Let's talk about food.

Bahá'u'lláh described agriculture as "a vital and important matter" that was foremost among the principles "conducive to the advancement of mankind and to the reconstruction of the world” (Tablets of Bahá'u'lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas 90, 89). Yet current agricultural policy often prioritizes yield and profit over health, sustainability, and sociocultural features of rural communities, while the poor struggle to even feed themselves, and climate change makes farming increasingly unpredictable. These and other factors threaten food security.

Agriculture: the Secret Ingredient to Global Peace and Prosperity
To solve this problem (of economics), we must begin with the farmer; there will we lay a foundation for system and order because the peasant class and the agricultural class exceed other classes in the importance of their service.

Abdu’l-Baha knew that, without food production, nothing else would be possible in society. That reality likely sparked his intense concern for agriculture and how it worked, what would make it more successful, and its deeper implications for society.​

Hard work, long hours and why would the next generation want to stay on the farm when they can go to the city? What are the Baha'i solutions?

 

[CG Didymus]

It appears it would be best if I do not comment on what I have not taken the time to study.

Regards Tony

Yeah, I really didn't think it was written as something negative. More of something that needed to be done, so Baha'i teachers could relate the Baha'i message in a way that the people could understand and relate to. Like, obviously here with Atheists, using the term, "God", has an automatic negative response. Once that word is mentioned, nothing else a Baha'i says matters. So, if you wanted to be friends with an Atheist, what would you do and say? It'd probably be similar to what the Baha'is did in India, use terms they can relate to.

 

[Trailblazer]

So Bahaullah, as a mortal, was in a position to say what God can and cannot do.

Baha'u'llah was mortal but He was more than mortal. He was another order of creation, above an ordinary mortal, as are all the Messengers of God. He had a twofold nature, both human and divine and as such God was able to communicate to Him through the Holy Spirit. As a Messenger of God, He was in a position to say what God can and cannot do.

So Bahaullah was god in physical form, able to perform miracles that will leave no doubt about his identity and existence.
Cool!

Baha'u'llah was not God in physical form but He did perform miracles. However, miracles are only proof to people who witness them. They have to be 'believed' by anyone else.

Famous Miracles in the Baha’i Faith

"Bahá’u’lláh forbade His followers to attribute miracles to Him because this would have amounted to the degradation of His exalted station. Nevertheless, there are many accounts left to posterity by His disciples, describing the circumstances in which He either healed incurables or raised the dead.

None of these supernatural acts were considered by His followers to be a proof of the truth of His Cause, since they are only convincing to a limited number of people and they are not decisive proofs even for those who see them."

So you know Bahaulla is god because Bahaullah told you he is.
That's about a circular as logic can get. Sorry.

Sorry, that is a big fat straw man. I NEVER said that. Show me where I ever said that.

I have corrected that misconception on the forum dozens of times. I do not believe that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God because He told me so. That would be utterly inane and illogical, as any man can claim to be a Messenger of God.

I believe in Baha'u'llah because of the evidence that indicates that He was a Messenger of God.

 

[Sheldon]

So much for free will....

Yes it is a great gift.

Regards Tony

Apparently not, since you just admitted you don't have it.

As a Bahai I can only offer what has been interpreted by either Baha’u’llah or Abdu’l-Baha.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, at least one Baha'i seems to.

Who is that Baha'i?

Meaning what, precisely?

It means what it says.... God manifests Himself in the flesh.

What does the meaning of Manifest mean?

1 : readily perceived by the senses and especially by the sense of sight Their sadness was manifest in their faces. 2 : easily understood or recognized by the mind : obvious. manifest. verb. manifested; manifesting; manifests.
Manifest Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.