Baha’i community members: Baha’is spreading misunderstandings and misinformation about the community

[Jim]

Ok, immediately contact the appropriate institution as I mentioned above. Once that responsibility is discharged they have now done all they can.

Exactly. When I saw the campaigns of denunciation against the House of Justice, I saw immediately that it was well informed about that, and doing everything that needed to be done to protect the Faith. The same applies now to anything that is happening in Internet discussions that might be harmful to the Faith. That’s why I’ve never seen any need to be concerned about that. My concern has always been for the people that I’ve seen repelled from the Faith by what its members have been saying and doing in Internet discussions. Finally I realized that there might be no need for me to be concerned about that either, for the same reasons. Now it’s just an intuitive feeling that maybe I still have some kind of responsibly to do something when I see it happening in front of my face.

 

[Jim]

I think now that maybe all I need to do is say what I think sometimes about what looks to me like misunderstandings and misinformation, without all the drama, and fill in some missing information.

 

[Jim]

NOTE: I see that this thread is now featured. For information for anyone who might want to know, It’s in the Same Faith forum, and it’s only for people who are recognized by Baha’i institutions as members of the worldwide Baha’i Faith community. Anyone else who wants to post comments or questions about it can do that in the Religious Q&A forum.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I think now that maybe all I need to do is say what I think sometimes about what looks to me like misunderstandings and misinformation, without all the drama, and fill in some missing information.

I agree with you here. Perhaps the best we can hope for with any discussions we enter into is to share how we see it and agree to disagree.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thank you.

I think there was a time when some Baha’is thought that Abdu’l-Baha was the return of Christ. I might be remembering that wrong, but I’ll use it as a hypothetical example. Imagine that most Baha’is think that Abdu’l-Baha is the return of Christ, and some of them are posting in Internet discussions, saying that it’s a fundamental teaching of the Faith, debating about it with Christians. and saying or insinuating that any Baha’i who openly disagrees with it is violating the Covenant. The institutions are well aware of it and have decided not to intervene in online disagreements between Baha’is except once when it became a growing and spreading war between factions. Does that mean that when you see some Baha’is doing that in a forum where you’re posting, you should just ignore it? If not, then what would you do?

This was a misunderstanding amongst a few Baha’is early on as I understand it and easily cleared up through considering the Baha’i writings as well as the explanations of the Guardian.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Also, have you had that experience of thinking some members of the Faith in Internet discussions were spreading misunderstandings and misinformation about the community and the Cause of Bahá’u’lláh? If so, how did you respond to it?

The year I first participated in the World Wide Web a Baha’i friend helped set up my first email account and suggested I join this discussion forum called talisman. I was a relatively new Baha’i at the time so although a contributed a handful of posts just dipped my toe in the water and didn’t get too involved. A few years later another friend of mine had her membership removed by the Universal House of Justice. That year I witnessed eight members of my community, all well known to me, do what they thought needed to be done. They took a stand in declaring they believed the Universal House of Justice wrong in taking this action. I wasn’t one of them of course. So you ask if I have had any experience with people promoting misinformation and misunderstandings on the internet. I believe I have. However they may well have believed they were acting for the best interests of the Cause doing what they felt needed to be done, just as I was.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The role I played was simple. I worked with my local Assembly, ABM and Counsellors to educate the community about the Covenant of Bahá’u’lláh. I maintained friendly relationships for a while with the individuals who openly opposed the Universal House of Justice. Eventually each one of them either distances themselves from the community or eventually resigned.

 

[Jim]

The role I played was simple. I worked with my local Assembly, ABM and Counsellors to educate the community about the Covenant of Bahá’u’lláh. I maintained friendly relationships for a while with the individuals who openly opposed the Universal House of Justice. Eventually each one of them either distances themselves from the community or eventually resigned.

Now I’m ready to discuss some specific issues, if you would like to.
- Painting a false picture of the Baha’i Faith community and the cause of Bahá’u’lláh which hides the light of religion and science from people and repels them away from it.
- Saying that there is a prohibition in the Faith against gay sex and gay marriage.
- Saying that some people have been removed from the membership because of the views they were promoting.

I’ll discuss those in separate posts.

 

[Jim]

One specific issue is Baha’is painting a false picture of the Baha’i Faith community, and the cause of Bahá’u’lláh, which I think hides the light of religion and science from people and repels tgem away from it.

In most forums where I’ve posted I’ve seen some people continually posting, as Baha’is, about “what Baha’is believe,” and arguing and debating with people of other religions and people criticizing religious beliefs, without ever mentioning what the House of Justice has been promoting for Baha’i communities, and with attitudes and behavior contrary to Bahá’u’lláh’s purposes and prescriptions and to explicit advice from the House of Justice. What people see being called “the Baha’i Faith” is a belief system opposed to theirs being promoted dishonestly and treacherously by people who bend forum rules as far as they can and don’t care how much they spoil the discussions for others. I know that might not really be what’s happening, but that’s how it has always looked to me and I think to many other people. That’s what I see as hiding the light of religion from people and repelling them away from it. Another thing is a habit of saying or insinuating that any Baha’i who openly disagrees with them about some things they say is violating the Covenant.

All of that might discourage most other Baha’is from posting as Baha’is, allowing Baha’is who are painting the worst picture of the Baha’i Faith to monopolize all the discussions about it.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Now I’m ready to discuss some specific issues, if you would like to.
- Painting a false picture of the Baha’i Faith community and the cause of Bahá’u’lláh which hides the light of religion and science from people and repels them away from it.
- Saying that there is a prohibition in the Faith against gay sex and gay marriage.
- Saying that some people have been removed from the membership because of the views they were promoting.

I’ll discuss those in separate posts.

Sounds fine. I’m happy to hear what you have say about both these issues.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thank you.

I think there was a time when some Baha’is thought that Abdu’l-Baha was the return of Christ. I might be remembering that wrong, but I’ll use it as a hypothetical example. Imagine that most Baha’is think that Abdu’l-Baha is the return of Christ, and some of them are posting in Internet discussions, saying that it’s a fundamental teaching of the Faith, debating about it with Christians. and saying or insinuating that any Baha’i who openly disagrees with it is violating the Covenant. The institutions are well aware of it and have decided not to intervene in online disagreements between Baha’is except once when it became a growing and spreading war between factions. Does that mean that when you see some Baha’is doing that in a forum where you’re posting, you should just ignore it? If not, then what would you do?

You remembered correctly and it did indeed upset Abdul'baha and in response many Tablets confirmed His station as Abdul'baha.

If one saw this happening, it would start by offering the passages given by Abdul'Baha. Then from then it would then unfold to what the next step may be.

Regards Tony

 

[Jim]

Sounds fine. I’m happy to hear what you have say about both these issues.

Not two issues. Three. I posted above about the first one. Now I’ll discuss the third one, saying that some people have been removed from the membership because of the views that they were promoting.

The only way that I know about any Baha’is being disqualified from membership by the House of Justice has been from letters that those disqualified people have posted on the Internet themselves, saying that they’ve received them from the House of Justice and other Baha’i institutions. I’ve never seen any message to the Baha’i community from any of its institutions, saying that some members have been disqualified because of the views that they were promoting, or that there is any Baha’i law or policy against members of the Faith promoting views that are contrary to Baha’i teachings. Have you?

 

[Jim]

Sounds fine. I’m happy to hear what you have say about both these issues.

I’m not saying that any of what I said about the behavior of Baha’is in Internet discussions is true. Any of it may or may not be true. I’m saying how it has always looked to me, and how I think it looks to other people sometimes.

Another example is Baha’is biting at every piece of bait that is dangled in front of them, inducing them to say and do things that repel people from the Faith.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Not two issues. Three. I posted above about the first one. Now I’ll discuss the third one, saying that some people have been removed from the membership because of the views that they were promoting.

The only way that I know about any Baha’is being disqualified from membership by the House of Justice has been from letters that those disqualified people have posted on the Internet themselves, saying that they’ve received them from the House of Justice and other Baha’i institutions. I’ve never seen any message to the Baha’i community from any of its institutions, saying that some members have been disqualified because of the views that they were promoting, or that there is any Baha’i law or policy against members of the Faith promoting views that are contrary to Baha’i teachings. Have you?

Yes

Baha'i Mysticism

 

[Dawnofhope]

I’m not saying that any of what I said about the behavior of Baha’is in Internet discussions is true. Any of it may or may not be true. I’m saying how it has always looked to me, and how I think it looks to other people sometimes.

Another example is Baha’is biting at every piece of bait that is dangled in front of them, inducing them to say and do things that repel people from the Faith.

The approach I took as an assistant for protection was to educate our Assembly and community about the Covenant of Bahá’u’lláh. Everyone was welcome and invited to attend study classes. Those who wished to avail themselves of that opportunity attended. There was no obligation. I was approached by one member of the break away group to assist her study the Will and Testament of Abdu’l-Bahá. I obliged and it was friendly and amicable. Eventually she resigned from the Baha’i Faith. I believe it was a good decision for her as the Baha’i Faith was not a good fit for her.

There is a member of this forum who had his membership removed some time ago. He drops in from time to time and its usually amicable. He still considers himself a Baha’i regardless of his membership status.

 

[Jim]

I’ve never seen any message to the Baha’i community from any of its institutions, saying that some members have been disqualified because of the views that they were promoting, or that there is a Baha’i law or policy against members of the Faith promoting views that are contrary to Baha’i teachings. Have you?

Yes

Baha'i Mysticism

I asked if you have ever seen a message to the Baha’i community from any of its institutions, saying that some members have been disqualified because of the views that they were promoting, or that there is any Baha’i law or policy against members of the Faith promoting views that are contrary to Baha’i teachings. Your link is to a message posted on the personal Web site of one of the people who were removed, allegedly written by the House of Justice to a national spiritual assembly, which people have interpreted sometimes as saying that she was removed because of the views she was promoting, and which I don’t think has ever been validated by any Baha’i institution as what the Department of the Secretariat actually wrote.

I can see how my question could be misunderstood. What I’m asking for is a message distributed to all Baha’is by Baha’i institutions, saying that some members have been disqualified because of the views that they were promoting, or that there is a Baha’i law or policy against members of the Faith promoting views that are contrary to Baha’i teachings.

 

[Jim]

Sounds fine. I’m happy to hear what you have say about both these issues.

The second issue that I listed as an example of possible disagreements between us is gay sex and gay marriage. I don’t see any prohibition in Baha’i scriptures against gay sex or gay marriage, and I don’t see anything about homosexuality as an illness that can be cured, or any more of a problem at all than people thinking that they’re straight. I don’t think that I’m contradicting Shoghi Effendi or any decision of the House of Justice, but for discussion purposes let’s say that I am, and you think that what I’m saying is contrary to the Covenant.

Thus, if any participant in an email discussion feels that a view put forward appears to contradict or undermine the provisions of the Covenant, he should be free to say so, explaining candidly and courteously why he feels as he does. The person who made the initial statement will then be able to re-evaluate his opinion and, if he still believes it to be valid, he should be able to explain why it is not contrary to either the letter or the spirit of the Covenant. The participants in such a discussion should avoid disputation and, if they are unable to resolve an issue, they should refer the point to the Universal House of Justice since, in accordance with the Will and Testament of 'Abdu'l-Bahá, 'By this body all the difficult problems are to be resolved ...'and it has the authority to decide upon 'all problems which have caused difference, questions that are obscure, and matters that are not expressly recorded in the Book.' In this way the Covenant can illuminate and temper the discourse and make it fruitful.

Internet, the World Wide Web, and Electronic Discussion Lists: A perspective from the Bahá'í Writings

Again, I don’t think that I’m contradicting Shoghi Effendi or any decision of the House of Justice, but for discussion purposes let’s say that I am. Does that make what I’m saying contrary to the Covenant? If so, how is it contrary to the Covenant?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I asked if you have ever seen a message to the Baha’i community from any of its institutions, saying that some members have been disqualified because of the views that they were promoting, or that there is any Baha’i law or policy against members of the Faith promoting views that are contrary to Baha’i teachings. Your link is to a message posted on the personal Web site of one of the people who were removed, allegedly written by the House of Justice to a national spiritual assembly, which people have interpreted sometimes as saying that she was removed because of the views she was promoting, and which I don’t think has ever been validated by any Baha’i institution as what the Department of the secretariat actually wrote.

I can see how my question could be misunderstood. What I’m asking for is a message distributed to all Baha’is by Baha’i institutions, saying that some members have been disqualified because of the views that they were promoting, or that there is a Baha’i law or policy against members of the Faith promoting views that are contrary to Baha’i teachings.

I see. I agree. I’m not aware of any message to the entire world wide Baha’i community from the Universal House of Justice indicating that member X has had his or membership removed on account of promoting views contrary to Baha’i law. Nor am I aware of any policy.

In regards the letter allegedly written by the Universal House of Justice amongst other allegedly confidential documents you are correct to raise the issue of validity. No Baha’i institution could validate the authenticity of these letters as they are obligated to maintain confidentiality. Likewise any current or former members of Baha’i institutions would be bound by the same confidentiality. We only have the claim of the person who had her membership was removed.

 

[Jim]

I see. I agree. I’m not aware of any message to the entire world wide Baha’i community from the Universal House of Justice indicating that member X has had his or membership removed on account of promoting views contrary to Baha’i law. Nor am I aware of any policy.

In regards the letter allegedly written by the Universal House of Justice amongst other allegedly confidential documents you are correct to raise the issue of validity. No Baha’i institution could validate the authenticity of these letters as they are obligated to maintain confidentiality. Likewise any current or former members of Baha’i institutions would be bound by the same confidentiality. We only have the claim of the person who had her membership was removed.

What I’m thinking is that if there were any law or policy against Baha’is promoting views contrary to Baha’i teachings, there would be some message somewhere saying so, and if people were removed from the membership for that reason, there would be a message informing us about that, without specifying who they were.

i don’t have any reason to doubt the authenticity of the documents posted by the people who were removed. I just don’t agree with reading messages into them for the whole community, without those messages being validated by any institutions.

 

[Jim]

Sounds fine. I’m happy to hear what you have say about both these issues.

I might be all better now. If you’re doing things that I think are hiding the light of religion from people and repelling them away from it, and if you think that I’m saying and doing things contrary to the Covenant, I’m seeing that now as part of our diversity, and I’m feeling more comfortable with it now. That doesn’t mean that I won’t still be posting my own view of it sometimes.