Bahá’u’lláh’s role in responding to the needs of the world, and in human progress

[Jim]

NOTE: This is in a non-debate forum. I’m not thinking that no one can disagree with me or disapprove of what I’m saying, just hoping that everyone will try to keep it friendly.

These are some personal ideas of my own about the role of the Baha’i prophet Baha’u’llah in helping to improve the lives of all people everywhere and helping to improve the world for future generations. I’m not speaking for the Baha’i Faith or for any other Baha’is.

I think that people learning to follow Baha’u’llah because of their love for the God that they see in Him, continually trying to better understand His purposes and practicing together His prescriptions for individuals, institutions and communities, is helping now, today, to improve the lives of all people everywhere, and to improve the world for future generations. I think that it’s helping to reduce and counteract the damage from natural disasters including disasters arising from human nature, and it’s helping individuals and communities recover from disasters faster and better. I think that it will continue to do all that more and more as people learn to do it more.

My idea of how the world will improve includes more friendly and fair relationships between all people all around the world, without any of the lines of alienation and hardheartedness, including belief lines, that we see between people today. It includes bringing out the best possibilities in people and for people, in human civilization, and in the world around us. It includes the elimination of most or all kinds of cruelty, violence and oppression at all levels from individuals to nations and nation-sized alliances. It includes more and better of all the best in the arts, crafts, sciences and services that we see in the world today, with little or none of the harmful ways that we see them being used.

(edited to add the following)
Part of what Baha’is are learning to do, side by side with their neighbors, is training and practice for economic and social development that revolves around self improvement and community service, and is guided by spiritual values, principles and goals.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The only problem is that Bahais say that what all other religions believe is outdated by Bahaollah, and you would yourself not accept the mission of Mahdi, i.e., Mirza Gholam Ahmad of the Ahmadiyyas who came later than Bahaollah. How do we manage that? Don't you think this causes friction? Why would the religions whom you belittle in various ways ('there is no record of what their propounders said') will join in your nice efforts?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

NOTE: This is in a non-debate forum. I’m not thinking that no one can disagree with me or disapprove of what I’m saying, just hoping that everyone will try to keep it friendly.

These are some personal ideas of my own about the role of the Baha’i prophet Baha’u’llah in helping to improve the lives of all people everywhere and helping to improve the world for future generations. I’m not speaking for the Baha’i Faith or for any other Baha’is.

I think that people learning to follow Baha’u’llah because of their love for the God that they see in Him, continually trying to better understand His purposes and practicing together His prescriptions for individuals, institutions and communities, is helping now, today, to improve the lives of all people everywhere, and to improve the world for future generations. I think that it’s helping to reduce and counteract the damage from natural disasters including disasters arising from human nature, and it’s helping individuals and communities recover from disasters faster and better. I think that it will continue to do all that more and more as people learn to do it more.

My idea of how the world will improve includes more friendly and fair relationships between all people all around the world, without any of the lines of alienation and hardheartedness, including belief lines, that we see between people today. It includes bringing out the best possibilities in people and for people, in human civilization, and in the world around us. It includes the elimination of most or all kinds of cruelty, violence and oppression at all levels from individuals to nations and nation-sized alliances. It includes more and better of all the best in the arts, crafts, sciences and services that we see in the world today, with little or none of the harmful ways that we see them being used.

How can other faiths talk about having peace with the Bahai religion in the interfaith when they are told bluntly their beliefs need to be updated in order for this peace to happen?

I know Bahai wants peaceful conversations; but, without facing confrontation (which is how we learn, right?) and talking through challenges, they will never get what they want.

We don't avoid problems and debates (not arguments-those are different) to have peace. We need to face and learn from them.

 

[Jim]

The only problem is that Bahais say that what all other religions believe is outdated by Bahaollah, and you would yourself not accept the mission of Mahdi, i.e., Mirza Gholam Ahmad of the Ahmadiyyas who came later than Bahaollah. How do we manage that? Don't you think this causes friction?

Obviously it does, in Internet discussions. What I’m talking about is offline, in neighborhoods and villages.

 

[Jim]

How can other faiths talk about having peace with the Bahai religion in the interfaith when they are told bluntly their beliefs need to be updated in order for this peace to happen?

I’m not sure that I understand your question. You mean, how can they not have objections to it? What I’m talking about is not about people accepting Baha’i beliefs, or updating their own.

We don't avoid problems and debates (not arguments-those are different) to have peace. We need to face and learn from them.

I agree.

 

[Jim]

How can other faiths talk about having peace with the Bahai religion in the interfaith when they are told bluntly their beliefs need to be updated in order for this peace to happen?

I know Bahai wants peaceful conversations; but, without facing confrontation (which is how we learn, right?) and talking through challenges, they will never get what they want.

We don't avoid problems and debates (not arguments-those are different) to have peace. We need to face and learn from them.

I think now that I should edit the OP to describe briefly the kind of community work that Baha’is are learning to do.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I’m not sure that I understand your question. You mean, how can they not have objections to it? What I’m talking about is not about people accepting Baha’i beliefs, or updating their own.

Bahai faith is saying other beliefs are outdated (there's a whole thread on it) and that we need current and future manifestations that would lead to world peace and eventually peace with god (however translated).

I can't figure how to explain it in an interfaith forum. I just see it would be more challenging to have world peace in a world in which our conflicting beliefs define other people rather than accepting and believing how they define themselves. This isn't a "bahai" thing, though. I honestly never seen it in any other religion but christian (and now bahai). Muslim, probably, but I haven't seen it in the US fortunately.

 

[Jim]

Bahai faith is saying other beliefs are outdated (there's a whole thread on it) and that we need current and future manifestations that would lead to world peace and eventually peace with god (however translated).

I can't figure how to explain it in an interfaith forum. I just see it would be more challenging to have world peace in a world in which our conflicting beliefs define other people rather than accepting and believing how they define themselves. This isn't a "bahai" thing, though. I honestly never seen it in any other religion but christian (and now bahai). Muslim, probably, but I haven't seen it in the US fortunately.

I’m still not sure that I understand the question.

My idea is that part of what is helping to improve the lives of all people everywhere and helping to improve the world for future generations is people learning together to understand Bahá’u’lláh’s purposes and practice His prescriptions, as I think they are doing in an ever-increasing number of neighborhoods and villages around the world. Are you questioning that, or are you just thinking that your idea of world peace would be impossible without some people changing some of their beliefs? If that’s what you’re thinking, I might agree with that. I think that some of the beliefs and ways of thinking of all people including Baha’is will need to change.

Apart from that, there might be some differences between the kind of world that Baha’u’llah is aiming for and whatever “world peace” means to you or to anyone else. Any of my thoughts about what He’s aiming for might be wrong too.

 

[Sirona]

Apart from that, there might be some differences between the kind of world that Baha’u’llah is aiming for and whatever “world peace” means to you or to anyone else. Any of my thoughts about what He’s aiming for might be wrong too.

From what I read, the ideal state of "world peace" for Bahais would be a theocracy, which is ironic as the faith originated in a country where a theocracy is currently established, a theocracy in which members of your admired faith are being persecuted badly. From this first-hand evidence, it should be clear that theocracies do anything but contribute to a better world. But maybe it is a "birth defect" of the Bahai faith, that both the this religion and its "mother religions" grew in a climate which favors theocracy so much that the self-declared "most progressive" religion just can't relinquish the concept of theocracy, which continues to prove itself as an obstacle to a "better world" day after day.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Part of what Baha’is are learning to do, side by side with their neighbors, is training and practice for economic and social development that revolves around self improvement and community service, and is guided by spiritual values, principles and goals.

Jim one thing that should be noted is that all the training materials that are used to to achieve the above aim, are Baha'i related.

That in itself shows that it is not going to find favour with a lot of people.

So lets explore this comment

"..My idea of how the world will improve includes more friendly and fair relationships between all people all around the world, without any of the lines of alienation and hardheartedness, including belief lines, that we see between people today..."

How is it that lines of alienation are not placed as a result of those study materials, would not a person have to be open to the possibility to enable them to cross the line and study the material offered in the communities?

Now in asking that question, I see the answer lays within the acceptance of our oneness and that what is offered has equal value to what a person of another Faith can offer from their writings. Until then, until the worlds collective vision accepts the possibility of our Oneness, how is it possible? people choose to be alienated, is is not an effect and not the cause?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

From what I read, the ideal state of "world peace" for Bahais would be a theocracy, which is ironic as the faith originated in a country where a theocracy is currently established, a theocracy in which members of your admired faith are being persecuted badly. From this first-hand evidence, it should be clear that theocracies do anything but contribute to a better world. But maybe it is a "birth defect" of the Bahai faith, that both the this religion and its "mother religions" grew in a climate which favors theocracy so much that the self-declared "most progressive" religion just can't relinquish the concept of theocracy, which continues to prove itself as an obstacle to a "better world" day after day.

This is a good point and it aids in our growth as a human species. Firstly I see a lesser peace that involves Just elected governments in each Nation. I see those governments will be working in unity and in turn asking for spiritual guidance in all their affairs. It is the hearts of each of that God wants us to change, not for the rule of the world.

A time will most likely come where no man wants to be a ruler and when that time comes I see a spiritual system of rule where each community has an elected 'House of Justice' going to an elected National body and then and elected Universal body.

That is a distant future, it is the needs of this age that we live in, that we need to make better for all those to come after us, not leave them such a mess that it will take centuries to clean up.

Regards Tony

 

[Sirona]

This is a good point and it aids in our growth as a human species. Firstly I see a lesser peace that involves Just elected governments in each Nation. I see those governments will be working in unity and in turn asking for spiritual guidance in all their affairs. It is the hearts of each of that God wants us to change, not for the rule of the world.

A time will most likely come where no man wants to be a ruler and when that time comes I see a spiritual system of rule where each community has an elected 'House of Justice' going to an elected National body and then and elected Universal body.

That is a distant future, it is the needs of this age that we live in, that we need to make better for all those to come after us, not leave them such a mess that it will take centuries to clean up.

Regards Tony

Do I understand you correctly, that indeed you would prefer to live in a theocracy?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Do I understand you correctly, that indeed you would prefer to live in a theocracy?

I see man needs to progress.

As such I see the function of priests has been abolished for all time. I see all decisions will be made by a body of elected people from a community, which then builds upon the elections of the Nation, then on to the universal scale.

I see in the short term, people that are elected to any government will be of good character and honest in their dealings, to tell a lie, or be dishonest will be the biggest shames a person can have.

But I do see those that are elected in the distant future will have faith in God and their lives will be devoted to God.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I’m still not sure that I understand the question.

My idea is that part of what is helping to improve the lives of all people everywhere and helping to improve the world for future generations is people learning together to understand Bahá’u’lláh’s purposes and practice His prescriptions, as I think they are doing in an ever-increasing number of neighborhoods and villages around the world. Are you questioning that, or are you just thinking that your idea of world peace would be impossible without some people changing some of their beliefs? If that’s what you’re thinking, I might agree with that. I think that some of the beliefs and ways of thinking of all people including Baha’is will need to change.

Apart from that, there might be some differences between the kind of world that Baha’u’llah is aiming for and whatever “world peace” means to you or to anyone else. Any of my thoughts about what He’s aiming for might be wrong too.

I'll have to come back. That's one reason we can't have world peace. A lot of us feel we need to compromise our beliefs. You mentioned about learning Baha'i faith, we shouldn't need to understand it to build peace..

Can you imagine trying to learn thousands of religions first to have world peace?

 

[Jim]

From what I read, the ideal state of "world peace" for Bahais would be a theocracy ...

What I’m discussing in this thread is not what Baha’is think about world peace. My idea is that part of what is helping to improve the lives of all people everywhere and helping to improve the world for future generations is people learning together to understand Bahá’u’lláh’s purposes and prescriptions, because of their love for the God that they see in Him. I’m not sure that what He’s aiming for will be what anyone would call a “theocracy,” but maybe so. The way it looks to me now is that the laws of all governments will include the laws of Bahá’u’lláh and His House of Justice.

 

[Jim]

Jim one thing that should be noted is that all the training materials that are used to to achieve the above aim, are Baha'i related.

Thank you. Other people can do training and practice in spiritual growth and community service for the same purposes using their own scriptures if they want to. All the better if they do.

That in itself shows that it is not going to find favour with a lot of people.

For Bahá’u’lláh’s purposes I don’t see any need for all people to participate in the Baha’i training.

How is it that lines of alienation are not placed as a result of those study materials, would not a person have to be open to the possibility to enable them to cross the line and study the material offered in the communities?

Now in asking that question, I see the answer lays within the acceptance of our oneness and that what is offered has equal value to what a person of another Faith can offer from their writings. Until then, until the worlds collective vision accepts the possibility of our Oneness, how is it possible? people choose to be alienated, is is not an effect and not the cause?

Exactly. Sometimes people choose to be alienated. Sometimes they don’t. I think that Baha’is are a long way from exhausting the possibilities with people who choose not to be alienated.

 

[Jim]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg I think that it might be good for you, and for Baha’u’llah’s purposes, if you could learn to trust the House if Justice more. I have some ideas about how you might do that, if you would be willing to try.

 

[Jim]

I'll have to come back. That's one reason we can't have world peace. A lot of us feel we need to compromise our beliefs. You mentioned about learning Baha'i faith, we shouldn't need to understand it to build peace..

Can you imagine trying to learn thousands of religions first to have world peace?

I’m still not sure that I understand what you’re trying to say. If you’re thinking that improving the world for all people is impossible without people changing some of their beliefs, I think that might be true, but I don’t see that as a problem. People change their beliefs all the time, sometimes from one extreme to another, across all belief divides.

I don’t see any need for everyone to learn about all religions.

I didn’t say anything about learning the Baha’i Faith. I’m thinking that part of what needs to happen is more people learning together to understand Bahá’u’lláh’s purposes and practice His prescriptions. I’m not saying that is, or ever will be, the only way for anyone to help improve the world.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Tony said 'we should all unite under the Bahai banner'. Now, I already hold a banner in my hand, the banner of 'absolute atheism'. Why would I abandon that banner? IMHO, religions only cause friction, more when they comment on religions other than their own.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I’m thinking that part of what needs to happen is more people learning together to understand Bahá’u’lláh’s purposes and practice His prescriptions. I’m not saying that is, or ever will be, the only way for anyone to help improve the world.

All religions talk of peace. Is there anything special about that? Why do I need to study Bahaollah's purpose and practice **HIS** prescription? There are many other doctors in the world. Religions are wolves in sheep's clothing. What they really want is evangelism. All this talk of community service is just a sham.