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Baby Baptism

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Bishka, Jul 3, 2006.

  1. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Because Christ calls us to respond. "Come. Follow."
     
  2. Elvendon

    Elvendon Mystical Tea Dispenser

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    You can't "gain" grace. Everyone is blessed with grace, sinners all. Grace is (almost) a purely one-way gift. We just have to accept it. Being a Christian is being "conscious" of grace.

    A relationship is two-way. God will provide some of that which is needed, and is permanently willing to engage with us, but he won't force himself upon us. We need to pray, to work, to talk and to act in such a way to cultivate that relationship.

    The difference between me and Bin Laden is that I am awhere of the grace of God upon my soul - he is not. I seek to relate to God, he does not. Of course, he relates to what he considers as God, but I personally don't worship my own bigotry.

    Being a Christian does not mean you are better or more blessed than anyone else. In merely means you have accepted a specific relationship with God. One can judge who is a Christian not on who goes "Lord, Lord", but who lives a righteous and compassionate life.
     
  3. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Not efficacious for the presence and work of grace in us -- but that grace must be translated in the world. That's ministry. That's what Christ calls us to do -- to make a response. Those of us who respond to the call are followers. Doesn't make "us" better than "them." It just means that our energy and attention can now be focused on ministry rather than self-absorbtion.

    We are all transfromed by grace. But not all of us acknowledge that transformation, so we don't act on it in ministry.

    The difference between bin Laden and me is that I have answered the call of Christ. Bin Laden has not.
     
  4. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    What??? You mean RESPOND and nullify all that grace? No way. You have already told me that I have the same Grace as Osama. If I do ANYTHING that might be construed as a work, I will lose it all! Then Osama will have more grace than me.

    You see? There HAS to be a response: an act of obedience. Anything else is simply NUTS.

    This boils down to a few points at which we are at loggerheads.
    I believe in scriptural Baptism.
    I believe in scriptural Grace.

    You rely on the traditions of the Catholic church which seem to run contrary to scriptural teachings (at least to me).
     
  5. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    You're confusing action in order to receive grace with action as a response to grace already received.
    The act of Baptism does not confer grace. Baptism is our response to grace that has already been received.

    :edit: Grace is not quantitative. One cannot "have more" grace than another. Grace is not something one "gets." Grace is a state of being, given to all of us in the Christ-event. When we acknowledge the life of grace, we can realize its benefits as we give that life to others in ministry.
     
  6. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Show one instance in the Bible where an infant is baptised (households don't count).

    As for ALL of us having the same grace...

    James 4:6 But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says:
    "God opposes the proud
    but gives grace to the humble.
    " NIV

    You disagree with the scriptures yet again.
     
  7. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Please show me this in the scriptures.
     
  8. Elvendon

    Elvendon Mystical Tea Dispenser

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    If you mean Roman Catholic, I'm afraid you are wrong. Though I believe in the sanctity of the Church and their rites, I completely disapprove of it's authoritarian organisation - the RC is responisble for the emasculation of my tradition, so I am not Roman Catholic.

    If we rely so much on acts of obedience, what if the ritual isn't done properly? Do you go to hell? If God wants to save someone, then why should he be limited to what the church does?
     
  9. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Of course households count!

    Not all of us ground theology in the concept of sola scriptura. For me, theology is based upon scripture, tradition, and reason. Just because it's not "in the Bible" in a literalistic way does not invalidate it.

    Nothing I've said stands in opposition to the James passage. Unless you engage in proof-texting.:redcard:
     
  10. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    I don't know... it was JESUS who first told us to be baptized. Maybe you should take it up with him?
     
  11. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    But you elevate tradition higher than the scriptures. There is nothing wrong with ANY of those as long as you get their priority right.

    Love First. (The Spirit)
    Scripture Second.
    Logic third.
    Tradition is a distant last place.

    EVERYTHING you have contended flies in the face of Jame's passage UNLESS you egage in utter denial.
     
  12. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Actually, it was John who first told us to be baptized. And it was John's baptism in which Jesus was baptized...Biblically speaking.
     
  13. Elvendon

    Elvendon Mystical Tea Dispenser

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    No, but what if you are not baptised properly? If memory served, Jesus immersed in the Jordan. Were you?

    Following Sola scriptura as a source for guidance can only take you so far. It leaves you stuck in a rut, giving you no room for manuever in ethical, theological or spiritual issues. It was devotion to this that gave rise to atheism - it deprived Christianity of it's day-to-day, spiritual realism and moved it up into the lofty rafters of universities and seminaries.
     
  14. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Jesus thought much the same:

    Mark 7:5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?" 6 He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
    " 'These people honor me with their lips,
    but their hearts are far from me.
    7 They worship me in vain;
    their teachings are but rules taught by men.'8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."
    NIV


    Really, and I suppose you have some evidence for this? I guess I will stop reading my Bible IMMEDIATELY. It's way too dangerous. I should just follow the rules of men instead. Good call.
     
  15. Elvendon

    Elvendon Mystical Tea Dispenser

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    This is a good quote against the use of tradition, but has nothing to do with the sola scriptura approach.

    Don't be facecious. I said sola scriptura was the cause of atheism, not reading the Bible. By refusing to elabourate upon and augment scripture using common sense and tradition, the puritans who agreed with your approach crafted a form of religion that lacked many of the aspects that endear a faith to normal people (such as a sense of heritage and relevance) thus laying the way for widespread atheism in europe by making it easy for normal people to abandon daily worship.

    Read "The Twilight of Atheism" by Alister McGrath. It tells you all about it.

    And in response to your James quote, may I present Titus:


    11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. Titus 2:11

    All men. All men. Grace has appeared to all men. Not just the humble, not just the jews. But all.
     
  16. Elvendon

    Elvendon Mystical Tea Dispenser

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  17. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    That whole article (I didn't read it all) is full of misconceptions about "grace".
     
  18. Elvendon

    Elvendon Mystical Tea Dispenser

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    Care to name a-few?

    For your perousal, here is the section I was speaking about:

     
  19. Elvendon

    Elvendon Mystical Tea Dispenser

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    The rest....

     
  20. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    OK. If it's true that God gives grace to the humble...who's more humble than an innocent infant??? Can we not celebrate and acknowledge the presence of that grace with a ritual in which we recognize the presence of Christ?

    I do? in what way has anything I've said been proven to be "unBiblical?" Obviously, proof-texting a literalistic interpretation of a few passages of scripture is not a compelling argument for me. Fact is, I agree with what the Wikipedia article said. I agree with the position of the Anglican Communion. I find their stance Biblically compelling, as well as good practical theology. It makes sense in light of acting inclusively toward our children, as Jesus did.


     
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