Baby Baptism

[Scuba Pete]

But yet, you say that the act of obedience cannot be performed by parents for the child, who can do nothing for itself?

Being a child is obedience enough. It's doing just what God wants it to do.

So...we can pray for other people, but we can't make an act of obedience for other people (who are our responsibility)?

Can you SIN for another person?

 

[Scuba Pete]

Netdoc? May I ask you a question that may seem incredibly random?

Have you bought any south american hardwood furniture recently? If so, do you know whether it was renewably sourced?

No, I have not. We are considering buying flooring from South America and it is purported to be from second growth hardwood, meaning it was farmed. However, I would love to see where you are taking this.

 

[Scuba Pete]

God doesn't love the murderer as much as God loves you? Why? Because he's a murderer?

God died for each equally. Are they both saved?

Doesn't that place the existence of grace solely on the acts and intentions of the murderer?

We obviously have different ideas on what grace is. It would help though, if you answered my questions rather than dance around them.

 

[sojourner]

Being a child is obedience enough. It's doing just what God wants it to do. Can you SIN for another person?

Again, you're basing this whole thing upon the actions (obedience) of the person in question (the child). Of course the child is doing what God wants it to do. That's because the child hasn't developed enough independence to thwart what the Holy Spirit is doing. Why can't the community acknowledge that action of obedience through the sacramental presence of Christ?

 

[Scuba Pete]

What purpose is baptism then? You have redefined baptism as presented to us in the scriptures.

Now... how about answering this question:

CAN YOU SIN FOR ANOTHER PERSON?

 

[sojourner]

God died for each equally. Are they both saved? We obviously have different ideas on what grace is. It would help though, if you answered my questions rather than dance around them.

Yes. Both are saved. Grace is free to all, or it isn't grace at all. The effectiveness of grace is not contingent upon what we do.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Yes. Both are saved. Grace is free to all, or it isn't grace at all. The effectiveness of grace is not contingent upon what we do.

So what's the use in becoming a Christian?

 

[Smoke]

CAN YOU SIN FOR ANOTHER PERSON?

For those who believe that the entire human race became guilty as a result of the sin of Adam and Eve, I guess the answer would have to be Yes.

 

[sojourner]

What purpose is baptism then? You have redifined baptism as presented to us in the scriptures.

Now... how about answering this question:

CAN YOU SIN FOR ANOTHER PERSON?

Baptism is a sign for us. It is an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace, given by Christ as sure and certain means by which we receive that grace. It is our outward and public acknowledgment of the Holy Spirit at work in us. It is the Church's recognition of the Holy Spirit at work in the life of the candidate, and in the life of the candidate's family. Baptism is the sacrament by which God adopts us as God's children and makes us members of the Body of Christ -- the Church -- and inheritors of the kingdom.

The grace found in baptism is union with Christ in his death and resurrection, birth into God's family -- the Church -- forgiveness of sin, and new life in the Holy Spirit.

To answer your other question: Yes.

 

[Elvendon]

No, I have not. We are considering buying flooring from South America and it is purported to be from second growth hardwood, meaning it was farmed. However, I would love to see where you are taking this.

Well then you are very responsible, and I commend you for it.

My point was to illustrate that had you bought South American hardwood, you would be supporting an industry that has caused, directly and indirectly, the deaths of hundreds and (historically) thousands of native peoples in Amazonia.

The issue is that by living in the world, we indirectly cause harm to many others. Occupying a parking space for example would force someone else who wanted to park there to drive on and get into a serious accident. Lets say this person would go on to sire someone who would cure cancer and save millions of lives. Does that make your car parking an act of mass murder? Effectively, yes. Would any court in the land convict you? Absolutely not. But nonetheless, you had a part to play, in the deaths of all those people.

The issue is, that none of us, by living in the world, can avoid causing harm or hurt to others. We can do our best, but none of us can claim to be truly good. You are, in God's eyes, just as flawed as the murderer. Accepting that is part, in my mind, of being a Christian.

 

[sojourner]

So what's the use in becoming a Christian?

One doesn't become a Christian in order to "get stuff" -- like grace, or eternal life, for example. Christianity is not consumerism -- and faith is not rewards-based.

One becomes a Christian as a response to the perception of grace in one's life, and in response to hearing the call of Christ to one.

:edit:
Effectively, in infant baptism, the parents are agreeing that Christ calls all (even children). They are acknowledging that call for the child (who cannot acknowledge for itself.) They are agreeing to bring up the child in the Church, to know Christ and to be able to follow him. Later, the child may confirm those promises, as he/she becomes old enough to do so, living into the life in Christ.

 

[Elvendon]

So what's the use in becoming a Christian?

The use brother is gaining greater relationship and fellowship with God. You shouldn't be a Christian for the grace - you should be a Christian because you love God.

EDIT: What sojourner said ^^

 

[sojourner]

As a corollary to my post above:

Infant baptism strengthens the role of parents in child development, as coupled with their own faith-walk, affirms the family, gives witness to unity (as opposed to individualism) and confirms 1) that we are all called by Christ and 2) called to exercise and acknowledge one faith.

Otherwise, we tend to become just a bunch of individuals who happen to show up at the same place, at the same time (or not!), and exercise faith in our own way.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Oh wait a minute... I asked the WRONG question. It's not "What's the use"... it's CAN we become a Christian?

According to you guys, everyone is the same and there is no difference, so obviously Bin Laden is a Christian. Ergo, Christians are waging a holy jihad on Christians.

 

[Scuba Pete]

The use brother is gaining greater relationship and fellowship with God. You shouldn't be a Christian for the grace - you should be a Christian because you love God.

EDIT: What sojourner said ^^

No.. there is nothing you can do to "GAIN" a greater relationship with God. You said so yourself. Everyone is the same. I and Osama are one.

 

[Scuba Pete]

To answer your other question: Yes.

OK... how do you SIN for someone else? This I have to read.

 

[sojourner]

Oh wait a minute... I asked the WRONG question. It's not "What's the use"... it's CAN we become a Christian?

According to you guys, everyone is the same and there is no difference, so obviously Bin Laden is a Christian. Ergo, Christians are waging a holy jihad on Christians.

Just because all have been offered grace does not mean that all acknowlegde its presence or efficacy. Christians are those who have acknowledged grace and the changed nature of their being. "Become" refers to the transformation of the ego, outlook, expectations, and self-awareness. We "become" who God has made us and who Christ calls us to become.

 

[Scuba Pete]

One becomes a Christian as a response to the perception of grace in one's life, and in response to hearing the call of Christ to one.

Why respond? We are all the same anyway.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Just because all have been offered grace does not mean that all acknowlegde its presence or efficacy.

According to your earlier statements we don't NEED to acknowledge this. THAT would be a work. Are you now contending that the acknowledgement is efficacious?

Christians are those who have acknowledged grace and the changed nature of their being. "Become" refers to the transformation of the ego, outlook, expectations, and self-awareness. We "become" who God has made us and who Christ calls us to become.

Wait a minute... God loves us all just the same. Why do YOU get to be transformed? Why not Bin Laden? Don't you think God loves Bin Laden? WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOU AND BIN LADEN???

 

[sojourner]

OK... how do you SIN for someone else? This I have to read.

You're viewing this all extremely individualistically. We are a human family, and none of us, to coin a phrase, is an island, exempt from that humanity. Elven. posted a terrific thought along these lines. We participate with, in and for each other in everything we do, whether we realize it or not. We are one people -- one family in God. It's all about "us" -- not "you and/or me." That's why salvation must be an all-or-nothing affair. That's what Paul talks about when he says there is one faith. Faith, obedience, sin -- they're all interwoven within the whole fabric of humanity. To engage in the practice of infant baptism is simply to include small children within that fabric.