babies and sex: the paradox

[MoonWater]

There's something i overheard my uncle say a while ago and a recent thread on christianity and homosexuality brought it back to my mind so I thought I'd bring it up for discussion.

He brought up the paradox of babies and sex, that is the paradox of how children are so universally seen as a miracle and a wonderful beautiful thing; they are seen as innocent and pure; and yet the sexual act that is necessary for the creation of that child is so frequently taught to be and thought of as something impure, dirty sinful, or naughty. This idea of "sinful sex" is prevalent in so many religions and philosophies and even many of those that don't view it as overtly sinful still see it as impure, a "weakness of the flesh" or something "only to be used for procreation" and even when being used for procreation the basic idea behind it is that it should not be enjoyed.

I personally find this very confusing. How is it that the birth of a child can be seen as such a beautiful miracle and yet the act that creates them be seen as such a dirty sin? It just doesn't add up. If children are so wonderful how can the act that creates them be so sinful?

 

[Father Heathen]

How is it that the birth of a child can be seen as such a beautiful miracle and yet the act that creates them be seen as such a dirty sin?

I see it as the other way around, myself.

 

[Madhuri]

I think that religions are supposed to be against illicit sex only but people take it much further.

 

[MoonWater]

I think that religions are supposed to be against illicit sex only but people take it much further.

Could you clarify what you mean by illicit sex?

 

[Father Heathen]

I think that religions are supposed to be against illicit sex only but people take it much further.

What would make sex illicit?

Edit: beaten to the punch

 

[Madhuri]

I mean sex outside of marriage.

You have to remember that most religions were developed in a time when there wasn't really any good contraception. To have sex outside of marriage or in a non-committed situation then more often than not the woman would end up as a single mother with nobody wanting to marry her ever and no opportunity to be an independent working woman. It was a bad situation. So this kind of sexual activity was taught as being bad and for many is still considered bad because girls still fall pregnant and have these problems.

Most people, even the very religious, do not think that sex is bad or dirty within marriage but it is still considered a very private act because of how intimate sex can be.

 

[ChristineES]

Sex itself is not sinful in any way. I was always told that it was a beautiful between two people who love each other (I am not sure what to make of it if the people are not in love).

 

[dust1n]

Just the kind of thought that would have gotten you killed 300 years ago.

 

[Metempsychosis]

I personally find this very confusing. How is it that the birth of a child can be seen as such a beautiful miracle and yet the act that creates them be seen as such a dirty sin?

Not all religions see sex force as inherent evil...
Tantra(Hinduism/Buddhism) says the sacred creative force when channelized properly through rigorous self-control can produce far bigger miracles.(but this is not sacred-sex as some people may think)

It just doesn't add up. If children are so wonderful how can the act that creates them be so sinful?

There is nothing called sin.Sin is a creation of a weak and miserable mind.If faith in ourselves had been more extensively taught and practiced, I am sure a very large portion of the evils and miseries that we have would have vanished.

 

[Madhuri]

(but this is not sacred-sex as some people may think)

Are you sure about that? Don't some trantrics see sex (between people who love each other) as the path to divinity?

I'm not well informed about it, i've just seen the book titles..and maybe read tiny passages that seemed interesting

 

[Troublemane]

I think it should be pointed out that all cult movements throughout history have made a requirement that the cult control the sexual activities of its members. Control of sex is always one of the best ways to control people, because its a natural instinct and limiting it tends to channel energy in the direction the leaders want.

And as most religions start out as a cult, it just follows they would have rules about sexual conduct, just as there are rules about everything else--how to pray, how to eat, what to eat, how to wash yourself,etc. It all is about control.

The reason children are considered beautiful is they represent new members of the religious group, so it is in the religion's best interest to encourage the parents to love it and teach it their religious principles.

 

[Madhuri]

I think it should be pointed out that all cult movements throughout history have made a requirement that the cult control the sexual activities of its members. Control of sex is always one of the best ways to control people, because its a natural instinct and limiting it tends to channel energy in the direction the leaders want.

And as most religions start out as a cult, it just follows they would have rules about sexual conduct, just as there are rules about everything else--how to pray, how to eat, what to eat, how to wash yourself,etc. It all is about control.

The reason children are considered beautiful is they represent new members of the religious group, so it is in the religion's best interest to encourage the parents to love it and teach it their religious principles.

I think that is is a broad generalisation and only represents extreme groups. I especially disagree with the idea of why children are considered beautiful. the OP is not asking why religions consider children beautiful, but why humans do. There are no demanding teachings about seeing our children as miracles. The emphasis is on controlling sex.

 

[Troublemane]

of course, its evolutionarily advantageous for us to like our offspring, as they are so weak and vulnerable for so long. Thats the best reason I have heard for why we love our children so much. The instinct to protect them, even children we don't know, is very strong.

However, violence against step children is alot higher than against biologically same children. The step parent is alot more likely to hurt their kids, and thats just evolution also.

But as far as sex being bad, its also as you said to keep the geneology pure. I mean, thats why the term bas-tard is an insult. It used to be that if a child was born out of wedlock the father had no obligation at all. Now things are different, and even with thousands of people born out of wedlock all the time, and single mothers being so common, you would think the term bas-tard would not be an insult anymore!

 

[Metempsychosis]

Are you sure about that?

Don't some trantrics see sex (between people who love each other) as the path to divinity?

Purely meditative techniques are normally used to awaken the sleeping force.The sex pleasure of course is considered to a reflection of the divine union at higher energy centers.

But yes,there are left handed ritualistic path,which uses sexual rites.These rituals are to be under supervision of a tantric master.I am not a advocate this method mainly due to human frailties.This method may work for one in an million:

The great symbol of this union is the union in love of man and woman. Therefore the Upanishads say: "The atman(soul) is as great as man and woman in close embrace." The bliss that ensues is neither I nor you, but the melting together of I and you in the mutual experience of the paramatman(over soul/supersoul), the divine Self that is inherent in all that is created.

Mind and object of contemplation have been absorbed in each other so that there is no longer
any duality.

I'm not well informed about it, i've just seen the book titles..and maybe read tiny passages that seemed interesting

Their wrong notion(prevailing in the west probably) regarding such tantric sex,they are degeneration of this method.So be careful while selecting books.

 

[Mr Cheese]

no one has mentioned ascetics....

and the idea that the body is dirty as form and flesh are weak.

This is a major part of some group's philosophy

 

[MSizer]

The primary goal of any living organism is to procreate. That's why people love babies so much. In order to minimize quick spread of disease once we started living in groups, we had to develop prohibitions against promiscuity (which we did, not conciously, but through natural selection).

 

[Mr Cheese]

The primary goal of any living organism is to procreate. .

Well in your view yes....

the simple fact is there are homosexual animals...

a recent google search on our cat at home started discussing calico cats, turns otu the vast majority are female. However some are male. This minorityof male cats actually ahve XXY Chromosomes. This too can be found in people, resulting in infertility and shrunken sexual organs.

So really I would argue that the "primary goal of any living organism" is garbage and really is a human assumption.

 

[MSizer]

Well in your view yes....

the simple fact is there are homosexual animals...

a recent google search on our cat at home started discussing calico cats, turns otu the vast majority are female. However some are male. This minorityof male cats actually ahve XXY Chromosomes. This too can be found in people, resulting in infertility and shrunken sexual organs.

So really I would argue that the "primary goal of any living organism" is garbage and really is a human assumption.

If we don't reproduce, we cease to exist. Just because some of us are either infirtile or wired up unlike most with regards to sexual preference, I'm convinced there's a decent explanation that fits in with the fundamental drive to pass on our genes. I'm one of those anomalies myself. It would literally be a nightmare to both my wife and I if she found out she were pregnant. Seriously, it's the worst thing I could imagine. But I'm convinced I still somehow play a role in the overall biological goal of humans to procreate, even though I appear on the surface to be to the contrary.

Oh, and your cat example is completely irrelevant. They're not naturally selected. Selection is imposed on them by humans.

 

[Mr Cheese]

If we don't reproduce, we cease to exist. Just because some of us are either infirtile or wired up unlike most with regards to sexual preference, I'm convinced there's a decent explanation that fits in with the fundamental drive to pass on our genes. I'm one of those anomalies myself. It would literally be a nightmare to both my wife and I if she found out she were pregnant. Seriously, it's the worst thing I could imagine. But I'm convinced I still somehow play a role in the overall biological goal of humans to procreate, even though I appear on the surface to be to the contrary.

Oh, and your cat example is completely irrelevant. They're not naturally selected. Selection is imposed on them by humans.

People have the same xxy chromosnal make up, which was my point...

in fact I thionk the research stated only homosapiens and cats have this "anomally"

But, there will always be breeders, but you seem to want to make a sweeping statement, like all organisms want to breed..

I disagree, because if this was true, there would not be exceptions, and there are.

 

[MoonWater]

Not all religions see sex force as inherent evil...
Tantra(Hinduism/Buddhism) says the sacred creative force when channelized properly through rigorous self-control can produce far bigger miracles.(but this is not sacred-sex as some people may think)

I know. I myself am actually part of a religion that views sex as sacred. I did my best to word my post to avoid the implication that all religions view sex as bad, sorry if it didn't come across.