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Azrael Antilla vs Link (Islamic dress code and society enforcement)

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
When it comes to human rights there is two types:

1. Negative right (that means people should not to do something to you and it should be implemented by government)
2. Positive right (that means people should do something for you and it should be implemented by government).

There are harms in sex outside of marriage, in that, children often don't know their fathers, it creates mistrust in society and the family structure is threatened from stability.

I also believe honor is a trust from God because we need it to develop society justly.

Before going on to other things, I will see what my opponent in the debate has to say so far.
 

Azrael Antilla

Active Member
Human rights are laid down in constitutional legislation, such as the ECHR. European Convention on Human Rights. They are usually proscriptive against mistreatment (of citizens) by the executive, the current government. In that they prohibit actions by state institutions. Some are conditional some are inviolable.
All human rights have to be balanced against considerations like national security and other unpredictable things, like this pandemic.

Where this is going with regard to compulsory islamic dress code. I am not so sure.
 
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Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Human rights are laid down in constitutional legislation, such as the ECHR. European Convention on Human Rights. They are usually proscriptive against mistreatment (of citizens) by the executive, the current government. In that they prohibit actions by state institutions. Some are conditional some are inviolable.
All human rights have to be balanced against considerations like national security and other unpredictable things, like this pandemic.

Where this is going with regard to compulsory islamic dress code. I am not so sure.

A positive human right is proven for example for taxes and healthcare, if consequences are minimal and benefits outnumber the inconvenience of it (ie. taxes). If the benefits are there and there is no harm, it's proven to be a human right.

So it's proven the inconvenience is less then benefits, it's proven to be a human right.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In this case, I think enforcing modesty on society has minimal inconvenience while much benefits arise. This include a society that is not prone to dishonor, mistrust, and also it's needed for family stability.
 

Azrael Antilla

Active Member
In this case, I think enforcing modesty on society has minimal inconvenience while much benefits arise. This include a society that is not prone to dishonor, mistrust, and also it's needed for family stability.

Your vision for human society. Is very different from mine. I would rather be dead and moreover that my family were dead, than live in your islamic society. That concludes effectively this debate.

*That's because I am western. I can't stand the idea being told how I should dress. I've seen middle Eastern clothing. No thanks. I am not middle Eastern. I am an individual. Nothing could sicken me more than conforming like a sheep. Death would be better.
 

Azrael Antilla

Active Member
Your understanding of rights is bizarre.

A positive human right is one where the individual has a right to do something. Like express religious belief.

A negative human right is a proscribed act that government may not do to you. Like torture.
 

Azrael Antilla

Active Member
People can wear what they like in a free society. Include religious dress. If they so wish. However try to force your standards and beliefs upon us outside of the ballot box. Then there can only be conflict. In my eyes Islam is a horrific anti human narrative. I am not sure what there is to debate.

If you are claiming that there are benefits to dressing modestly I would not dispute that. However there are benefits to dressing immodestly too. If you're a controling kind of person who thinks people should behave in a certain way, not only will you end up causing suffering. You will become a hated oppressor. Society cannot be rigidly controlled for long. Hence partly why waves of immigrants are fleeing the Islamic nations and others.
 
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Azrael Antilla

Active Member
Your vision for human society. Is very different from mine. I would rather be dead and moreover that my family were dead, than live in your islamic society. That concludes effectively this debate.

*That's because I am western. I can't stand the idea being told how I should dress. I've seen middle Eastern clothing. No thanks. I am not middle Eastern. I am an individual. Nothing could sicken me more than conforming like a sheep. Death would be better.
It took centuries to throw off the yoke of Christianity. Islam would be as bad if not worse. No. Never again. Not while the west stands. Not over my twitching corpse.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Your understanding of rights is bizarre.

A positive human right is one where the individual has a right to do something. Like express religious belief.

A negative human right is a proscribed act that government may not do to you. Like torture.

It's not bizarre, it's what I learned in philosophy of human rights. Most people talk about human rights don't even know their usage.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
People can wear what they like in a free society. Include religious dress. If they so wish. However try to force your standards and beliefs upon us outside of the ballot box. Then there can only be conflict. In my eyes Islam is a horrific anti human narrative. I am not sure what there is to debate.

If you are claiming that there are benefits to dressing modestly I would not dispute that. However there are benefits to dressing immodestly too. If you're a controling kind of person who thinks people should behave in a certain way, not only will you end up causing suffering. You will become a hated oppressor. Society cannot be rigidly controlled for long. Hence partly why waves of immigrants are fleeing the Islamic nations and others.

So we have to make a pros and cons, and compare. If the pros outweigh the cons, it's proven to be a human right.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Laws are for benefit of society. So what I'm saying is if the benefits of the law outweigh any harm or the benefits of the negation of the law don't ought weigh the benefit of the law, then the law should be implemented.

A human right is not concerned with the particular method of the implementation of the law, so not the law itself, but the law is to enforce the human right and is a specific application.

I believe modesty should be enforced because the benefits far outweigh the negation benefits or harms.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you can show in the pros and cons modesty should not be implemented by society, I would say, you can even prove Islam as a false religion.
 

Azrael Antilla

Active Member
So we have to make a pros and cons, and compare. If the pros outweigh the cons, it's proven to be a human right.
A human right is only a human right when legislated by a duly recognised authority. Period.

Secondly, that's not how it works.

Forcing people to practice a certain thing, whether on balance it is beneficial or not. Is not a human right. It's just oppression. Choice is removed. A criminal act.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
A human right is only a human right when legislated by a duly recognised authority. Period.

Secondly, that's not how it works.

Forcing people to practice a certain thing, whether on balance it is beneficial or not. Is not a human right. It's just oppression. Choice is removed. A criminal act.

The way human rights is defined, I think modesty can be seen as a human right and that government should enforce it with penalties otherwise.
 
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