Avi's Spiritual and Religious Journey

[Avi1001]

Hi All,

I have been member of this DIR for a few months now, since Aug. 2013. It's a great group of folks.

Many of you know me for my liberal Jewish and reform viewpoints. I am now feeling that I would like to enrich my experience of Judaism and participate in some of the aspects more fully and deeply.

This thread has been created by me, it is being written by me, for me. It is, in a sense, my own Judaism sub-DIR .

You are welcome to join me, on this thread, or even join me for part or all of my journey, by posting on this thread. All I ask is, if you choose to do so, please be positive and supportive. I will return the favor. And if invited, I will be pleased to join you on part or all of your journey !

Btw, I expect it to be a lonely journey, so thanks in advance to anyone who chooses to join me for part or all of our travels !

 

[Avi1001]

I was recently challenged when I described some practices as: "outdated and obscure". I thought it would be fun to share some examples. Feel free to add to this list:

..And yes, in the Birkot Hashachar, rather than the traditional brachot "shelo asani eved" ("who did not create me a slave"), "shelo asani goy" ("who did not create me a non-Jew") and "shelo asani ishah" ("who did not create me a woman,") the Conservative liturgy has instead "she-asani ben chorin" ("who made me a free person"), "she-asani Yisrael" ("who made me a Jew") and "she-asani betzalmo" ("who created me in His image").

Thank you, Levite. These are good examples.


Also, Avi Weiss, one of my heros, teaches "Open Orthodoxy", and is revising Orthodox Judaism to allow Ordination of women:

Ordination of Women[edit]
In May 2009, Weiss announced the opening of Yeshivat Maharat, a new school to train women as maharat, an acronym for the Hebrew מנהיגה הלכתית רוחנית תורנית (halachic, spiritual, and Torah leader), a title he created for a female version of a rabbi.[15] The school's mission, according to its website, is “to train Orthodox women as spiritual leaders and halakhic authorities” in a four-year full-time course.[16] Sara Hurwitz was appointed dean of Yeshivat Maharat.[17] On June 16, 2013 the first class of female maharats graduated from Yeshivat Maharat.[18]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avi_Weiss

And what about driving on Shabbas:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driving_on_Shabbat_in_Jewish_law

There are many examples from another hero of mine, Mordeci Kaplan. Two that come to mind are chosenness and miracles.

Lets add other examples, there are many .

 

[Akivah]

According to your weblink, the term "Open Orthodox" is not an accurate label.

Rabbi Steven Pruzansky, a trustee of the Rabbinical Council of America (RCA) on the Board of the Beth Din of America, argues that Weiss' approach closely resembles early 20th century American Conservative Judaism and in his opinion would more aptly be called "Neo-Conservative" rather than "Orthodox" Judaism.

And when Weiss announced a female rabbi, it met with widespread criticism from Orthodox authorities.

The Agudath Israel Council of Torah Sages issued a public statement suggesting that Weiss should no longer be considered Orthodox declaring that "these developments represent a radical and dangerous departure from Jewish tradition and the mesoras ha Torah, and must be condemned in the strongest terms. Any congregation with a woman in a rabbinical position of any sort cannot be considered Orthodox."

So I don't think the Orthodox are going to be accepting of female rabbis anytime soon.

 

[metis]

So I don't think the Orthodox are going to be accepting of female rabbis anytime soon.

I would suggest not betting big money on that as I read a couple of months ago whereas it was up for discussion at one of the Orthodox shuls somewhere here in the States-- just don't ask me where. I tend to think it's only a matter of time before one of their shuls takes the plunge, but then it begs what the response be from the Orthodox Union.

 

[metis]

Btw, I expect it to be a lonely journey, so thanks in advance to anyone who chooses to join me for part or all of our travels !

Yo Avi, could you be more specific as to how you got to where you're at, along with changes you may have made in regards to where you attend?

 

[RabbiO]

I was recently challenged when I described some practices as: "outdated and obscure"....

The Baal Shem Tov noted that to a deaf person people who were dancing to music he could not hear would look like they were crazy.

The fact that you do not hear the music does not mean that there is no music. The fact that an Orthodox Jew does not hear the "music" that the Reform or Conservative Jew hears and the Reform Jew and the Conservative Jew do not hear the "music" that their Orthodox brethren hear does not mean that there is no music or that there is only piece of music being played.

A wise rebbetzin once told me that the myriad expressions of Judaism are all valid if they are lived with authenticity. Judaism is the richer for its diversity.

No one is forced to be an Orthodox Jew, or a Conservative Jew or a Reform Jew. The Reconstructionist movement, the last time I checked, doesn't threaten to hold your children hostage if you decide you want to leave. There have always been Reform Jews who choose to become Orthodox, Orthodox who choose to become Reform....

The fact that one movement or another does not resonate with you does not mean it does not resonate for others. And it is not for you to decide for those who do find such resonance should change because their idea of how to live their Judaism is not the way that you choose to live yours. .

You do not have to like the music others are dancing to. You may be a country western kind of guy and the music is too classical, but you should, at least, try to hear it.

Peter

 

[Avi1001]

According to your weblink, the term "Open Orthodox" is not an accurate label.

And when Weiss announced a female rabbi, it met with widespread criticism from Orthodox authorities.

So I don't think the Orthodox are going to be accepting of female rabbis anytime soon.

Akivah, thanks for your response. I believe Weiss' Open Orthodoxy will receive lots of criticism. However, it seems like common sense to me to allow women into the Rabbinate.

As a Conservative Jew, what is your opinion of Open Orthodoxy ?

 

[Avi1001]

Yo Avi, could you be more specific as to how you got to where you're at, along with changes you may have made in regards to where you attend?

Sure, Metis, thanks for asking. I didn't so much intend this thread to talk about myself, more to share my views with fellow travellers. But I suppose this is very much the way a journey might begin, so I will try to be brief.

Born to a Conservative Jewish family, in the shadow of the holocaust, I was raised in a secular tradition, but was Bar Mitzvah. Like many children of the holocaust, I left the Synogogue after my Bar Mitzvah, and did not return for many years.

Later, I married a reform Jewish woman and we had a family. A turning point for me came when the US entered Iraq in the first Iraq War. My children were small then, and I recall being overwhelmed with a sense of history, as our tanks moved in to Bagdad. I remember thinking I need to give my children a sense of Judaism.

Ultimately, we joined a reform Temple and I began to study Judaism, mostly on my own. I have studied a great deal the last 20 years, but I feel that I am still a beginner. I am mainly attracted by the ethical and moral lessons taught by Judaism and I am proud to be Jewish.

Two years ago we switched to a Renewal Temple, but my family missed the reform tradition, so last year we switched back to reform.

It won't surprise you that I feel that I am a radical reformer. My beliefs are highly syncretic, sharing concepts from: reform, Reconstructionist, Renewal, Humanist, Jewish Agnostic and Jewish Atheist.

I have not discussed it in this forum, but I am a committed Zionist.

Ok, Metis, since we are on this journey together.....your turn .

 

[Avi1001]

The Baal Shem Tov noted that to a deaf person people who were dancing to music he could not hear would look like they were crazy.

Hi Rabbio, it sounds like you are describing me, right ? But....

The fact that you do not hear the music does not mean that there is no music. The fact that an Orthodox Jew does not hear the "music" that the Reform or Conservative Jew hears and the Reform Jew and the Conservative Jew do not hear the "music" that their Orthodox brethren hear does not mean that there is no music or that there is only piece of music being played.

I'm sorry, I have to respectfully disagree. I very much hear the music of the Orthodox and Conservative Jews. Why else would I be quoting Avi Weiss, and Open Orthodoxy, in this very thread ?

A wise rebbetzin once told me that the myriad expressions of Judaism are all valid if they are lived with authenticity. Judaism is the richer for its diversity.

I fully agree. However it does not mean that I agree with everything Orthodox or Conservative Jews or Israel do. And it does not mean I should remain silent when I disagree. For example, when Israel sends her army into Gaza and civilians are harmed, I will protest.

No one is forced to be an Orthodox Jew, or a Conservative Jew or a Reform Jew. The Reconstructionist movement, the last time I checked, doesn't threaten to hold your children hostage if you decide you want to leave. There have always been Reform Jews who choose to become Orthodox, Orthodox who choose to become Reform....

I think we agree here, too, because when Abraham disagreed with the traditions of his father he smashed the idols in his fathers idol shoppe.

The fact that one movement or another does not resonate with you does not mean it does not resonate for others. And it is not for you to decide for those who do find such resonance should change because their idea of how to live their Judaism is not the way that you choose to live yours. .

I do not "decide for those who do find such resonance should change ....". Indeed I have the utmost respect for Orthodox and Conservative Jews who are independent, non-dogmatic believers and practitioners.

You do not have to like the music others are dancing to. You may be a country western kind of guy and the music is too classical, but you should, at least, try to hear it.
Peter

In fact Rabbio, I very much care for the music of Orthodox and Conservative Judaism, even when I disagree with a great deal of it. I think that this disagreement is something that Orthodox and Conservative Jews often misinterpret. They think our disagreement is equated with disdain, if fact it is not.

 

[Akivah]

Akivah, thanks for your response. I believe Weiss' Open Orthodoxy will receive lots of criticism. However, it seems like common sense to me to allow women into the Rabbinate.

As a Conservative Jew, what is your opinion of Open Orthodoxy ?

Ah, common sense. As the Wiki article stated about Conservatism, common sense can be construed to be picking and choosing the bits we like. Personally, I'm not opposed to female rabbis. Since we had seven female prophets, I see no reason why females can't be rabbis. I belong to the Conservative branch for a reason.

The Open Orthodoxy as described by Wiki looks fine to me. I think getting the Orthodox to be more accepting is a positive step. But as the article states, most Orthodox are against it.

 

[punkdbass]

Sorry for arriving late to this thread, but I'm a bit confused.. Avi, if you don't mind, would you be able to explain how your "Religion" label on RF went from Liberal Jew, to Reconstructionalist Jew, to Orthodox Jew, to Jewish Atheist (in the amount of time that it took)?

Or maybe I'm confusing your "labels" with a different member here lol

 

[metis]

Sure, Metis, thanks for asking. I didn't so much intend this thread to talk about myself, more to share my views with fellow travellers. But I suppose this is very much the way a journey might begin, so I will try to be brief.

Born to a Conservative Jewish family, in the shadow of the holocaust, I was raised in a secular tradition, but was Bar Mitzvah. Like many children of the holocaust, I left the Synogogue after my Bar Mitzvah, and did not return for many years.

Later, I married a reform Jewish woman and we had a family. A turning point for me came when the US entered Iraq in the first Iraq War. My children were small then, and I recall being overwhelmed with a sense of history, as our tanks moved in to Bagdad. I remember thinking I need to give my children a sense of Judaism.

Ultimately, we joined a reform Temple and I began to study Judaism, mostly on my own. I have studied a great deal the last 20 years, but I feel that I am still a beginner. I am mainly attracted by the ethical and moral lessons taught by Judaism and I am proud to be Jewish.

Two years ago we switched to a Renewal Temple, but my family missed the reform tradition, so last year we switched back to reform.

It won't surprise you that I feel that I am a radical reformer. My beliefs are highly syncretic, sharing concepts from: reform, Reconstructionist, Renewal, Humanist, Jewish Agnostic and Jewish Atheist.

I have not discussed it in this forum, but I am a committed Zionist.

Ok, Metis, since we are on this journey together.....your turn .

Thanks for the above, but I have a time issue right now so I'll have to wait to give you my story. Anyhow, it sounds like a very interesting journey you're been through and, while I'm at it, I wish you and the others here a very pleasant...

Shabbat Shalom.

 

[dantech]

Thanks for the above, but I have a time issue right now so I'll have to wait to give you my story. Anyhow, it sounds like a very interesting journey you're been through and, while I'm at it, I wish you and the others here a very pleasant...

Shabbat Shalom.

Shabbat Shalom to you, and everyone else too.

Can I ask,

How does a non-theist or atheist Jew (I still don't understand this term, but let's move on) view the Shabbat?

Is it just a day of rest? or rather, what's the difference between an atheist Jew's view of the Shabbat and a Goy's view of the weekend?

I'm not sure whether you are an atheist, or a non-theist, or whatever it may be, but this question is asked to you, Caladan, Avi, and anyone who else who might have some insight.

 

[RabbiO]

Is it just a day of rest? or rather, what's the difference between an atheist Jew's view of the Shabbat and a Goy's view of the weekend?

You know, as well as I know, that "goy" in and of itself was a neutral word, meaning originally a nation as when the Israelites are called to be a goy kadosh, a holy nation. And you know, as well as I, that it has come to mean in Yiddish and in Hebrew a non-Jew, a gentile. In that regard, strictly speaking, it still is a neutral word.

However, I think we both know that there are some Jews who use the word in a perjorative manner. And there are some non-Jews who mistakenly believe that the use of the word is automatically a term of contempt.

Might I respectfully suggest that substituting "non-Jew" or "gentile" might be more appropriate under the circumstances to avoid confusion or hard feelings??

Peter

 

[metis]

Shabbat Shalom to you, and everyone else too.

Can I ask,

How does a non-theist or atheist Jew (I still don't understand this term, but let's move on) view the Shabbat?

Is it just a day of rest? or rather, what's the difference between an atheist Jew's view of the Shabbat and a Goy's view of the weekend?

I'm not sure whether you are an atheist, or a non-theist, or whatever it may be, but this question is asked to you, Caladan, Avi, and anyone who else who might have some insight.

Sure, I have some time to deal with this, so glad you asked as I'm sure this general question may have come up with some others.

My use of the term "non-theist" is pretty much the same as "agnostic", namely that I don't know if there is a god, gods, or none of the above; and I don't have a particular belief on this simply because I don't believe there's sufficient information for me to make a judgement. I am not an "atheist", the definition I use is having a belief that there are no deities. I say this because some people use different definitions for the same term.

When I have more time, as I mentioned to Avi, I'll explain the rather crazy journey I've been on, and if you think I'm rather weird now, just wait. To your questions:

Whether Torah is divinely inspired, I simply don't know, but what I do know is that there's quite a few teachings found within halacha that simply makes sense to me, and observing Shabbat is one of them. Tonight, I will be at services, and I'll use that time for meditation. On Shabbos, I do as little work as possible, go to Torah study Saturday morning, typically come home to read and/or meet with family, friends, and I sometimes attend services on Saturday rather than Friday.

As far as how I got to this point and where I was before, that'll have to wait until Sunday or Monday because it'll take a while to explain.

Shabbat shalom

 

[Avi1001]

Sorry for arriving late to this thread, but I'm a bit confused.. Avi, if you don't mind, would you be able to explain how your "Religion" label on RF went from Liberal Jew, to Reconstructionalist Jew, to Orthodox Jew, to Jewish Atheist (in the amount of time that it took)?

Hey punkd, I think the only explanation for this is ...... G-d's will .

 

[Avi1001]

Shabbat Shalom to you, and everyone else too.

Can I ask,

How does a non-theist or atheist Jew (I still don't understand this term, but let's move on) view the Shabbat?

Is it just a day of rest? or rather, what's the difference between an atheist Jew's view of the Shabbat and a Goy's view of the weekend?

I'm not sure whether you are an atheist, or a non-theist, or whatever it may be, but this question is asked to you, Caladan, Avi, and anyone who else who might have some insight.

Hi Dan, my own view of Shabbat is that it is a day of reflection. I often like to study literature related to Judaism or more generally comparative religion.

You asked about Jewish Atheism. As I mentioned, my belief system relates to different religions and philosophies. I find elements of Atheism very logical and reasonable. For example, I think an understanding of the creation of the universe can be explained without inclusion of the idea of G-d. However, I consider my views more similar to Jewish Atheist, than plain vanilla atheism, because of my connection to "cultural Judaism" .

 

[Avi1001]

You know, as well as I know, that "goy" in and of itself was a neutral word, meaning originally a nation as when the Israelites are called to be a goy kadosh, a holy nation. And you know, as well as I, that it has come to mean in Yiddish and in Hebrew a non-Jew, a gentile. In that regard, strictly speaking, it still is a neutral word.

However, I think we both know that there are some Jews who use the word in a perjorative manner. And there are some non-Jews who mistakenly believe that the use of the word is automatically a term of contempt.

Might I respectfully suggest that substituting "non-Jew" or "gentile" might be more appropriate under the circumstances to avoid confusion or hard feelings??

Peter

Hi Rabbio, I agree with your points, but I do not think Dan meant any harm using the word "goy". He is a nice person, so I do not think anyone would take offense.

 

[Avi1001]

Sure, I have some time to deal with this, so glad you asked as I'm sure this general question may have come up with some others.

My use of the term "non-theist" is pretty much the same as "agnostic", namely that I don't know if there is a god, gods, or none of the above; and I don't have a particular belief on this simply because I don't believe there's sufficient information for me to make a judgement. I am not an "atheist", the definition I use is having a belief that there are no deities. I say this because some people use different definitions for the same term.

When I have more time, as I mentioned to Avi, I'll explain the rather crazy journey I've been on, and if you think I'm rather weird now, just wait. To your questions:

Whether Torah is divinely inspired, I simply don't know, but what I do know is that there's quite a few teachings found within halacha that simply makes sense to me, and observing Shabbat is one of them. Tonight, I will be at services, and I'll use that time for meditation. On Shabbos, I do as little work as possible, go to Torah study Saturday morning, typically come home to read and/or meet with family, friends, and I sometimes attend services on Saturday rather than Friday.

As far as how I got to this point and where I was before, that'll have to wait until Sunday or Monday because it'll take a while to explain.

Shabbat shalom

Hi Metis, I think you have explained your views on non-theism to me before, but it is always interesting to hear your current perspective. I guess I am a little surprised that you limit the concept of non-theist to agnostic, I would have thought non-theistic could describe either agnostic or atheist. Is there some reason a non-theist could not also be an atheist ?

 

[metis]

Hi Metis, I think you have explained your views on non-theism to me before, but it is always interesting to hear your current perspective. I guess I am a little surprised that you limit the concept of non-theist to agnostic, I would have thought non-theistic could describe either agnostic or atheist. Is there some reason a non-theist could not also be an atheist ?

I actually have been borrowing the term from Buddhist dharma, and "non-theistic" has a more specific definition in terms of a non-belief in a creator-god. Even though it's a non-belief, this doesn't mean that a creator-god is absolutely out of the picture, which is why "atheism" doesn't apply here.

BTW, I hope to get to my "journey" fairly shortly, so have your No Doz ready.