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Avatar: The Last Airbender

Comicaze247

See the previous line
My girlfriend and I recently got into a debate about the story of Avatar: The Last Airbender (the cartoon, not the movie). She believes that, because of the original venue chosen, the overall story did not reach its full potential. She believes that, if written well as a book, as an adult (not necessarily meaning sexual content) fantasy novel, it could have become one of the classics among Lord Of The Rings and such (though she still loved the story anyway).

Specific arguments include:

1) Aang's (the Avatar) age determining the amount of character development possible within the story.
Her belief: If he were older, perhaps 16 or 17, at the beginning of the story, there would be much more room for character development.
My belief: Making him older is not necessary for allowing more character development. At the most, maybe starting at 13. And his age as it stands allows for the existence of the conflict of being a child and living his childhood and having the heavy burden of being the Avatar to be included in the story.

2) Aang's age being realistic in terms of his ability to develop a romantic relationship with Katara. Aang is 12 and Katara is 14.
Her: It's unrealistic, due to their stages of development, and kind of gross.
Me: I agreed, but it's not necessary for them to develop it at the start. If the story were stretched out over time, it would be perfectly fine for them to develop a romantic relationship as they age.

3) The rate at which Aang was able to master the elements.
Her: It was unrealistically fast.
Me: I agreed.

What are your thoughts?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
The age of Aang I thought played very well into the story. If he were an adult when he discovered he is the Avatar, then it could potentially lack the inner struggles, unless he is already very set into life, but given the monkish nature of his clan, that doesn't seem like that would be too plausible.
As far the age and relationship thing, it would have been very easy to just stretch out the years passed. I mean if you look at Dragonball Z, that series covered at least a decade in 200 some episodes.
And mastering the elements very quickly, yeah, that doesn't seem right unless the Avatar is supposed to be able to master them very quickly.
 

Comicaze247

See the previous line
The age of Aang I thought played very well into the story. If he were an adult when he discovered he is the Avatar, then it could potentially lack the inner struggles, unless he is already very set into life, but given the monkish nature of his clan, that doesn't seem like that would be too plausible.
My thoughts exactly. It would take away a very important (imho) element of his character.

As far the age and relationship thing, it would have been very easy to just stretch out the years passed. I mean if you look at Dragonball Z, that series covered at least a decade in 200 some episodes.
Yep, agreed completely.

And mastering the elements very quickly, yeah, that doesn't seem right unless the Avatar is supposed to be able to master them very quickly.
Exactly. On top of that, he still needed to master the Avatar state as well. And if you look at Avatar Roku, by the time he returned home after mastering them all, he was fairly old.

On top of all this, I would really like to know what exactly happened to Zuko's mother. If she was banished, why wouldn't she try to find Zuko after he was banished?
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
My girlfriend and I recently got into a debate about the story of Avatar: The Last Airbender (the cartoon, not the movie). She believes that, because of the original venue chosen, the overall story did not reach its full potential. She believes that, if written well as a book, as an adult (not necessarily meaning sexual content) fantasy novel, it could have become one of the classics among Lord Of The Rings and such (though she still loved the story anyway).
I disagree with her in specifics, I don't think that Avatar even as a book would have reached LotR levels... however, I agree in principle, it is extremely likely that as a book, as opposed to cartoon, that it would have been better, perhaps much so.

1) Aang's (the Avatar) age determining the amount of character development possible within the story.
Her belief: If he were older, perhaps 16 or 17, at the beginning of the story, there would be much more room for character development.
My belief: Making him older is not necessary for allowing more character development. At the most, maybe starting at 13. And his age as it stands allows for the existence of the conflict of being a child and living his childhood and having the heavy burden of being the Avatar to be included in the story.
I agree with you here... developing a child character does include differences from an adult one, but making a character an adult does not mean you have more of it...

2) Aang's age being realistic in terms of his ability to develop a romantic relationship with Katara. Aang is 12 and Katara is 14.
Her: It's unrealistic, due to their stages of development, and kind of gross.
Me: I agreed, but it's not necessary for them to develop it at the start. If the story were stretched out over time, it would be perfectly fine for them to develop a romantic relationship as they age.
Again, I agree with you... the issues are with time and not age.

I mean if you look at Dragonball Z, that series covered at least a decade in 200 some episodes
Ehh...
From what I remember it did not progress through the years evenly. It was, what maybe two years from the Vegeta scenario to the death of Cell, then it jumped about 8-10 years to the Babidi/Buu scenario... but it has been a long time since I've watched that show ;)
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
From what I remember it did not progress through the years evenly. It was, what maybe two years from the Vegeta scenario to the death of Cell, then it jumped about 8-10 years to the Babidi/Buu scenario... but it has been a long time since I've watched that show ;)
Gohan was very young at the beginning. It was a few years later at least by the time of the Cell saga, and he is in high school during the Buu saga. Granted it did jump quicker between Cell and Buu, but there were also more filler episodes between those two sagas.
 

methylatedghosts

Can't brain. Has dumb.
About being able to master elements quickly.

People love a character that is ridiculously over powered. Just look at River Tam in Firefly - arguably the character most people favour over all the others. Why? Because aside from hilarious remarks ("My food is problematic") she is ridiculously powerful. She has psychic abilities, she can destroy a whole ship full of Reavers in seconds (Serenity, one of the final scenes), all with what seems to be, no effort whatsoever.

That's why he can master the elements so quickly - not necessarily because it makes sense, but because it leaves people with a greater sense of awe and so love him all the more.

And about the young love...
It could be argued that while he's only young, his ability to master the elements so quickly convey an image of maturity (whether he is or not). He could be much older inside than he is outside. That, and if he can be sweet and lovey-dovey, it's a story, and a reason for girls of that age group to watch the cartoon as well. Girls, being more interested in social interactions in stories would likely watch it more for the interaction between the two, than for the rest, which is what the boys watch it for.
 

DarkSun

:eltiT
Ehh...
From what I remember it did not progress through the years evenly. It was, what maybe two years from the Vegeta scenario to the death of Cell, then it jumped about 8-10 years to the Babidi/Buu scenario... but it has been a long time since I've watched that show ;)

Did you ever watch GT?
It jumped about 100 years in a couple of minutes at Dragonball's conclusion.
Worst ending ever... :facepalm:
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Did you ever watch GT?
It jumped about 100 years in a couple of minutes at Dragonball's conclusion.
Worst ending ever... :facepalm:
I never finished watching it myself. The overall quality just went to an all new low for anything. Such a shame too, considering DBZ is pretty damn good.
 

DarkSun

:eltiT
I never finished watching it myself. The overall quality just went to an all new low for anything. Such a shame too, considering DBZ is pretty damn good.

Ehh... I disagree that the quality was getting worse.
I think I just grew out of it, that's all. :)
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I take it that you are basing your opinions about how quickly Aang mastered the elements on internal references from the series itself.

I must agree that it is probably the appeal of overpowered characters. Read Bleach sometime. It's main character pratically has as his mission in life to consistently be ridiculously more powerful than anyone could possibly expect, including himself.
 

DarkSun

:eltiT
I take it that you are basing your opinions about how quickly Aang mastered the elements on internal references from the series itself.

I must agree that it is probably the appeal of overpowered characters. Read Bleach sometime. It's main character pratically has as his mission in life to consistently be ridiculously more powerful than anyone could possibly expect, including himself.

You know, I was just about the read Bleach on Read Free Manga Online at One Manga. Online manga scans reader.. But then the internet police decided to protect the world from nothing again, and have the site shut down. :sarcastic

Haha, but I have been reading Naruto since it started. Naruto and Sasuke are becoming so incredibly OP it's not funny... It's kind of amusing, actually. The series went from having characters with semi-believable skills, to having characters whose abilities look like they've come straight from DBZ... Hahaha, ahh well, at least Naruto has a plot aside from the fighting. And so did Avatar, come to think about it.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Granted it did jump quicker between Cell and Buu, but there were also more filler episodes between those two sagas.
Interesting, from what I remember there were not that many filler episodes...it went from Gohan being 6-10ish to him being in high school and having a 6-8 year old brother that was not there before...

Checking, it looks like there were five or so, where Goku is in the Supreme Kai's tournament...

Did you ever watch GT?
No, I stopped watching right as it was releasing in America...
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
My girlfriend and I recently got into a debate about the story of Avatar: The Last Airbender (the cartoon, not the movie). She believes that, because of the original venue chosen, the overall story did not reach its full potential. She believes that, if written well as a book, as an adult (not necessarily meaning sexual content) fantasy novel, it could have become one of the classics among Lord Of The Rings and such (though she still loved the story anyway).

Specific arguments include:

1) Aang's (the Avatar) age determining the amount of character development possible within the story.
Her belief: If he were older, perhaps 16 or 17, at the beginning of the story, there would be much more room for character development.
My belief: Making him older is not necessary for allowing more character development. At the most, maybe starting at 13. And his age as it stands allows for the existence of the conflict of being a child and living his childhood and having the heavy burden of being the Avatar to be included in the story.

2) Aang's age being realistic in terms of his ability to develop a romantic relationship with Katara. Aang is 12 and Katara is 14.
Her: It's unrealistic, due to their stages of development, and kind of gross.
Me: I agreed, but it's not necessary for them to develop it at the start. If the story were stretched out over time, it would be perfectly fine for them to develop a romantic relationship as they age.

3) The rate at which Aang was able to master the elements.
Her: It was unrealistically fast.
Me: I agreed.

What are your thoughts?
I'd probably prefer Aang to be a little bit older. It was on Nickelodeon, so... As for romance, well, people do have crushes when they are that age. As for mastering the elements, I let that slide because he's the avatar. As for the medium, I think the anime-inspired cartoon was pretty good, though I might have preferred it as a manga.

My only real gripe with the story was the lameness of the final antagonist, Fire Lord Ozai. The whole series was great, and I was really looking forward to the climax against Ozai, and it let me down to some extent. I mean, throughout the entire series, you barely see Ozai, so there's no real character development. His personality is that of a cliche, superficial enemy. He has no particularly unique personality qualities. Even visibly, if his character was just standing among a bunch of fire guys, one might not even be able to point out which one was him. And, to make it all worse, he barely even put up a fight. There were 60 or so episodes specifically leading up to a fight against him and he wasn't even that tough. I mean, he was tough, but not final-villain tough.

Luckily Azula was there to act as a high-quality, developed, fleshed-out, interesting villain for most of the story, but it's a shame the final villain was a let down.

I take it that you are basing your opinions about how quickly Aang mastered the elements on internal references from the series itself.

I must agree that it is probably the appeal of overpowered characters. Read Bleach sometime. It's main character pratically has as his mission in life to consistently be ridiculously more powerful than anyone could possibly expect, including himself.
I think it's great if it's a villain that's overpowered. Aizen in bleach is so absurdly overpowered, and knows it, and that's why he's a cool villain. Ichigo's constant power increases aren't as interesting in my opinion.

-Lyn
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I must agree that it is probably the appeal of overpowered characters. Read Bleach sometime. It's main character pratically has as his mission in life to consistently be ridiculously more powerful than anyone could possibly expect, including himself.
Overpowered characters and Anime and Manga do seem to go hand in hand. Take Alucard from Hellsing for example. I really don't think it is possible to actually kill him. He's been drained, decapitated, shot to a million pieces, and almost every inch of his body stabbed by blessed knives, and yet he never dies. And when the bad guy seems to out power him, he taps into even more power that brings him from already way above a "super elder" to pretty much god.
I really wish I would have known about that OneManga site sooner though. I hate paying 15 bucks for something that takes me less than a half hour to read.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Overpowered characters and Anime and Manga do seem to go hand in hand. Take Alucard from Hellsing for example. I really don't think it is possible to actually kill him. He's been drained, decapitated, shot to a million pieces, and almost every inch of his body stabbed by blessed knives, and yet he never dies. And when the bad guy seems to out power him, he taps into even more power that brings him from already way above a "super elder" to pretty much god.
I really wish I would have known about that OneManga site sooner though. I hate paying 15 bucks for something that takes me less than a half hour to read.
yeah..
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
That's going to mess up my bleach and naruto reading.
Yeah. I've started reading a few different mangas. Sucks that Hellsing isn't on that site anymore because I haven't finished the actual manga yet.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Heads up guys, as I'm fairly certain that scanlation sites are illegal(especially considering recent threats of action against them), talking about your use of them is going to fall under rule 6.
 

Comicaze247

See the previous line
I'd probably prefer Aang to be a little bit older. It was on Nickelodeon, so...
I think if he were too much older, it would take away the important element of his struggle with being a child and dealing with the weight of being the Avatar. The struggle of maintaining his innocence and fulfilling his duties as the Avatar.

As for romance, well, people do have crushes when they are that age.
Yes, there are, but at that age, it's unlikely that they would be having that kind of a relationship. Not to mention, the only indication of attraction I remember seeing was the way Aang looked at Katara, and then Katara's interest in Aang only after hearing her fortune told.

Also, a relationship between a 12-year-old (7th grade in the U.S.) and a 14-year-old (9th grade in the U.S.), from what I hear, is generally believed to be kinda gross.
However, a relationship between a 14-year-old and a 16-year-old (Zuko) is much more acceptable. And in the case of Katara and Zuko, I would find it much more believable, given the deepness of their interactions.

As for mastering the elements, I let that slide because he's the avatar.
But it took Avatar Roku 12 years to do so, and he was 16 when he started.

As for the medium, I think the anime-inspired cartoon was pretty good, though I might have preferred it as a manga.
Yes, at the very least a manga, though I would prefer a well-written book.

My only real gripe with the story was the lameness of the final antagonist, Fire Lord Ozai. The whole series was great, and I was really looking forward to the climax against Ozai, and it let me down to some extent. I mean, throughout the entire series, you barely see Ozai, so there's no real character development. His personality is that of a cliche, superficial enemy. He has no particularly unique personality qualities. Even visibly, if his character was just standing among a bunch of fire guys, one might not even be able to point out which one was him. And, to make it all worse, he barely even put up a fight.
At the start of the fight, he did, and he probably would have won, had he not accidentally reactivated Aang's Avatar state. And it would be inconceivable for one person to be able to stand against someone who could channel the power of hundreds of Masters of all elements. When fighting an Avatar in the Avatar state, you're really fighting hundreds of Avatars.

Luckily Azula was there to act as a high-quality, developed, fleshed-out, interesting villain for most of the story, but it's a shame the final villain was a let down.
That's why I think it would have been much better as a book. There would be much more room to develop his character.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think if he were too much older, it would take away the important element of his struggle with being a child and dealing with the weight of being the Avatar. The struggle of maintaining his innocence and fulfilling his duties as the Avatar.

Yes, there are, but at that age, it's unlikely that they would be having that kind of a relationship. Not to mention, the only indication of attraction I remember seeing was the way Aang looked at Katara, and then Katara's interest in Aang only after hearing her fortune told.

Also, a relationship between a 12-year-old (7th grade in the U.S.) and a 14-year-old (9th grade in the U.S.), from what I hear, is generally believed to be kinda gross.
However, a relationship between a 14-year-old and a 16-year-old (Zuko) is much more acceptable. And in the case of Katara and Zuko, I would find it much more believable, given the deepness of their interactions.
Well, it's a little weird in modern US culture, but it's not like they got really physical.

Actually at one point in the series it looked to me like Katara and Zuko were going to be involved.

But it took Avatar Roku 12 years to do so, and he was 16 when he started.
Well that's why the series takes place during this avatar, 'cause he's awesome. :)

But also, he was raised from birth by monks, and during the series itself he lived during a time of immense struggle far above most avatars.

At the start of the fight, he did, and he probably would have won, had he not accidentally reactivated Aang's Avatar state. And it would be inconceivable for one person to be able to stand against someone who could channel the power of hundreds of Masters of all elements. When fighting an Avatar in the Avatar state, you're really fighting hundreds of Avatars.
If I recall, at one point in the fight, Aang (in his normal form) was going to hit Ozai with his own lightning (and Ozai was surprised/scared) but felt sympathy and choose not to. In addition, some time before the fight, Zuko hit Ozai with his own lightning and knocked him on his behind. Ozai was basically a tough goof.

I mean, Azula was virtually as powerful as Ozai was, and she's his teenage daughter. It wasn't exactly a fair fight, but at one point she was able to nearly kill the Avatar in his Avatar state with a surprise lightning shot.

For the sake of a more climactic ending, Ozai should have been given more power/ some other ability that makes him an actual threat to an avatar. That comet was a good plot device but wasn't as important as it could have been.

Yes, at the very least a manga, though I would prefer a well-written book.

That's why I think it would have been much better as a book. There would be much more room to develop his character.
Anime's and mangas can have very developed characters. The medium was not an excuse for the undeveloped primary antagonist.
 
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