Authority, truth, pride, and prejudice

[We Never Know]

Deuteronomy 32:4-5

You don't get it. An all knowing god would know we would go bad, hate and do wrong. He still created us anyway. So he created bad and hate to name a few.

 

[We Never Know]

To hate, is your choice. He gives us all sorts of counsel, on how to love. Colossians 3:13-14. But you can disregard it. That’s your prerogative.

He’s given us the smarts & the physical power to kill and torture animals. Other people, too .
But is that what you want to use your intelligence for?
We have a conscience to guide us; a sense of justice is tied in with that. Because of such intangible things, entire societies have built up laws that protect and govern. That’s God-given, too.
But you can unwisely disregard them... probably to your detriment.

You don't get it. An all knowing god would know we would go bad, hate and do wrong. He still created us anyway. So he created bad and hate to name a few.
He gave us free will and he knew how we would choose.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

A religion does not teach to hate other people, as a sufi i learn to love everyone.

Thats great! I can tell that about you, you’re very kind it seems.

But about religion... when a war develops between two countries, religions are sometimes among the first to support the fight. Even against their own brothers in that other country!
Protestant clergyman Harry Emerson Fosdick admitted: “Even in our churches we have put the battle flags . . . With one corner of our mouth we have praised the Prince of Peace and with the other we have praised the Prince of Peace and with the other we have glorified war. So well have we succeeded in blending Christ and carnage, the Gospel and organized slaughter, that recently a missionary in an Oriental country, after an address upon Christian goodwill, was taken aside by a native, who said, ‘You must know that the educated people of this country look upon Christianity as a warring, blood-spilling religion.’”

How do you feel about? More importantly, how do you think God feels about that?

Its an important question.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

You don't get it. An all knowing god would know we would go bad, hate and do wrong. He still created us anyway. So he created bad and hate to name a few.
He gave us free will and he knew how we would choose.

Wrong. “All knowing” does not entail knowing the future choices people will make.
You haven’t really read the Bible, have you? The events of Sodom and Gomorrah & Nineveh (w/ Jonah), reveal Jehovah God didn’t know the future.

 

[We Never Know]

Wrong. “All knowing” does not entail knowing the future choices people will make.
You haven’t really read the Bible, have you? The events of Sodom and Gomorrah & Nineveh (w/ Jonah), reveal Jehovah God didn’t know the future.

Ok! So then your are admitting the creator doesn't know the future. Then he can't be all knowing. That's a first I've seen from any Christian.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Thats great! I can tell that about you, you’re very kind it seems.

But about religion... when a war develops between two countries, religions are sometimes among the first to support the fight. Even against their own brothers in that other country!
Protestant clergyman Harry Emerson Fosdick admitted: “Even in our churches we have put the battle flags . . . With one corner of our mouth we have praised the Prince of Peace and with the other we have praised the Prince of Peace and with the other we have glorified war. So well have we succeeded in blending Christ and carnage, the Gospel and organized slaughter, that recently a missionary in an Oriental country, after an address upon Christian goodwill, was taken aside by a native, who said, ‘You must know that the educated people of this country look upon Christianity as a warring, blood-spilling religion.’”

How do you feel about? More importantly, how do you think God feels about that?

Its an important question.

I speak not for others, so my answer may be different than what a Christian or an other muslim will give you.
But I do not see war to have anything with religious life to do. I ask my questions why would i kill or harm someone who of some reason hate me and want me dead? That choice they make is their choice,, not mine.
I will protect my family (if I had one) but there is no happiness from it.

If, and i say if because i can not prove this is the right answer, If God "made" human beings fight each other so those who was "supposed" to die actually dies during a war, that might be a war like what we read about in history today. That would maybe be the only "legal" war that exist. But I might be very wrong on this point.

Those religious people from any religion who fight each other have to answer why they do it. I cant`t

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I speak not for others, so my answer may be different than what a Christian or an other muslim will give you.
But I do not see war to have anything with religious life to do. I ask my questions why would i kill or harm someone who of some reason hate me and want me dead? That choice they make is their choice,, not mine.
I will protect my family (if I had one) but there is no happiness from it.

If, and i say if because i can not prove this is the right answer, If God "made" human beings fight each other so those who was "supposed" to die actually dies during a war, that might be a war like what we read about in history today. That would maybe be the only "legal" war that exist. But I might be very wrong on this point.

Those religious people from any religion who fight each other have to answer why they do it. I cant`t

Yep, you’re right...there’s an accounting.

if you read Revelation 17 & Revelation 18 in the Bible, where God has the Great Harlot destroyed, one reason is because of her blood guilt.


Take care of yourself, my cousin.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Ok! So then your are admitting the creator doesn't know the future. Then he can't be all knowing. That's a first I've seen from any Christian.

Yeah...if we continue any dialogue, I’m sure you’ll find I’ll have a lot ‘firsts’ for you. Me along w/ over 8.5 million other JW’s. But really, if you read the Bible with an open mind, not conforming to any preconceived ideas, you will see that what it says is very different from what Christendom teaches!

Take care of yourself, my cousin.

 

[idea]

To have no 'authority' figures is to defy the scriptural model. To allow anyone to believe whatever they wish is to invite disunity. ....

I was not born a JW but chose to become one because no other religious group ticked as many boxes for me as they did....

The above two sentences would indicate to me that you have chosen to "believe whatever you wished". You chose your group - which is great, I think it is wonderful when people explore outside the bubble they were born into - but you did choose your group, you followed what you wished. I do not see anything wrong with this, we all have to become our own authority figure, we all choose our path, no borrowed light. The final authority figure is ourselves.

To be kind toward others is not meant as "I am better than you" i actually am happy for others when they find a spiritual path/religion that is what they belive in.
I dont have to defend my own belief, because it is just what i believe. But if someone ask a question about my belief, i will give an answer according to my understanding of the teaching I follow and practicing. I understand i can be wrong in what i say sometimes, and if i get the chance to gain more wisdom or understanding, i will try to correct my past mistakes.

I had an interesting conversation with a Jewish student of mine about patriotism vs. nationalism. I think the same can be said of religious groups, or families, or any kind of group. "Patriotic" is great! Loving your family, loving your heritage etc. It sounds like you have more of a patriotic mindset - "I understand I can be wrong" is what changes it all.

Can you also agree with "I understand that the leaders of my religious group can be wrong" ← that they are also only people, who can also be wrong, can you also agree with this statement? Are you able to critically evaluate and agree or disagree with what those at your Mosque or higher say?

There is good and evil in everything and everyone. I do believe that a personal walk with the Creator begins when the middleman is taken away from the picture. All of the different groups, I think they are perfect enough to take all of us that first part of the journey, and imperfect enough to push us onto our own two feet for a more personal, individual walk through that last piece of it.

Would a Creator, who has created all people, want us to love others? Or hate others?
Of course, we know the answer.

Now, let’s look at it this way....what if a particular religion, preaches hatred of people?
How should we view such a religion? Wouldn’t it be a kindness to lead them away from developing thought-processes endorsed by that particular religion, but which would incur God’s disfavor?

See, not everything religions teach, honors the Creator.

(Note that I said a religion teaching to hate people, not their actions. It’s appropriate to hate certain behaviors, like thievery... and killing.)

All organized religious groups seem to have some other group on the chopping block, exclude people from congregations exclude people from "saving ordinances" based on human perceptions of them. A rose by any other name - many claim to "love the sinner and hate the sin", but for most these are just words. I have seen it go both ways, excluding LGBT, excluding people for their nationality (Mormon priesthood ban against blacks etc.). I have also seen sinners forgiven - seen child abuse continue for years and years under the "love the sinner" mentality.

Many male-dominated religious groups seem to divide sins into two categories:
1.) Sins that benefit males are easily forgiven (adultery, porn, child abuse, wife abuse) ← swept under the rug and repeatedly "forgiven" because the organization puts all authority into the hands of older males.
2.) Sins that do not benefit males (unfaithful wife, LGBTQ (not a sin, but crushes the need for a male head of household), drug addiction, feminism, questioning directions, questioning doctrines. ← results in disfellowship / ex-communication, isolation etc. as these "sins" take power away from the male hierarchy.

Everyone likes to demonize those who hold different beliefs. There are demons, and hateful behaviors within all groups.

 

[idea]

So the creator created hate. There's no way around it.

Let me be clear here. If the creator created me, he also created everything in me and every emotion I can have and will display. Thus if I hate, he created hate. Convince me I'm wrong.

There is another belief system The Beginning. by Brig Klyce which answers this by saying we were not actually ex-Nihilo created. If everything has always existed, with no beginning and no end, free will is real, and we are our own demon and angel.

Laws of thermodynamics - conservation of mass, conservation of energy, nothing just magically appears, it all just changes from one form to another. We have had many different forms, mixed together and separated from the fabric of the universe.... this is the only explanation that makes sense to me.

 

[idea]

I identify with what God has taught me.

As does everyone Katz...

It is important for everyone to understand what elevation emotion is - that is wonderful to seek elevation, to feel connected with others, and that herd instinct bonding is real, within humans as it is with ant colonies following a queen or wolf pack following their alpha... but that feeling does not testify of "truth", nor is it a protection.

 

[idea]

If I may address a few points here....

If you understand who built those bricks and mortar buildings in competition with the original, you would see a very familiar tactic....imitation.....counterfeit. Isn't that what Jesus said would take place? (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-43)

All the trees are real trees, all people are real people, all groups are real groups. All have strengths and weaknesses, none are better than the other.

This is the one thing I found most pleasing about my studies with JW's. Coming from an Anglican background, all of the things that annoyed me about "Christianity" (as it was practiced in my church) were the very things I wanted to address and I was always made to feel bad for asking....and never got any straight answers anyway...plenty of excuses though. Not so with JW's. I had all my questions answered....even the most difficult ones, straight from the Bible....which was the only source I trusted. They showed me how to study the Bible...one topic at a time, because the Bible is not a book that you can simply read from cover to cover and get the sense of it. You need guidance to help you understand it. (Acts 8:29-31)

So you identify as an "ex-Angelican". I'm not sure if you are familiar with Fowler's stages of faith model (or others like unto it), see James W. Fowler - Wikipedia

There are many different types of ex's, ex-JW, ex-Angelican, ex-Mormons.... Some people leave to "sin" it is true, others leave because they were offended etc. It is as varied as the reasons people choose to get divorced, or choose to change their employment, or choose what school to attend. Stage 3 →stage 4 often regresses back to stage 3.

becoming a JW

becoming a JW, or becoming a Mormon, or becoming a ______ ← fill in the blank with anything you like, it is all a way of escaping oneself, escaping personal responsibility for critical thought by giving your freedom away, enslaving yourself to some other authority figure.

Become yourself. I believe God has created each of us, not to be enslaved by other authority figures, not to lean on any other arms of flesh, but to become ourselves, find ourselves, think and act for ourselves.

I soon learned that this is not a church that you could just "join" today by walking into a building, and walk away from tomorrow.

No one ever thinks they are in a cult.... If all of your close associates are within your church (control of community), if your church controls your time (creates superfluous jobs to keep you busy) , controls your behavior, manipulates your emotions, controls what information you are able to read. (I was brought up in JW offshoot, and know JW's are not allowed to read the "volumes" of work by Pastor Russell for example, we could talk through the schisms and what the origins of the JW movement really is - but your church would not like you reading this material etc. Link.

For those with friends and family in cults - and there are many degrees of this, here is a wonderful resource for help in de-programming someone: Steven Hassan's BITE Model of Authoritarian Control - Freedom of Mind Resource Center

I learned that Christian baptism meant

by proper "authority" of course - that is how the power struggles start, how enslavement starts. No different form the Catholic church, or any other group which claims they hold the only "true" means to salvation.

We are all puppets of someone......

You do not need to be a puppet at all.... you can be yourself.

 

[Spirit of Light]

The above two sentences would indicate to me that you have chosen to "believe whatever you wished". You chose your group - which is great, I think it is wonderful when people explore outside the bubble they were born into - but you did choose your group, you followed what you wished. I do not see anything wrong with this, we all have to become our own authority figure, we all choose our path, no borrowed light. The final authority figure is ourselves.



I had an interesting conversation with a Jewish student of mine about patriotism vs. nationalism. I think the same can be said of religious groups, or families, or any kind of group. "Patriotic" is great! Loving your family, loving your heritage etc. It sounds like you have more of a patriotic mindset - "I understand I can be wrong" is what changes it all.

Can you also agree with "I understand that the leaders of my religious group can be wrong" ← that they are also only people, who can also be wrong, can you also agree with this statement? Are you able to critically evaluate and agree or disagree with what those at your Mosque or higher say?

There is good and evil in everything and everyone. I do believe that a personal walk with the Creator begins when the middleman is taken away from the picture. All of the different groups, I think they are perfect enough to take all of us that first part of the journey, and imperfect enough to push us onto our own two feet for a more personal, individual walk through that last piece of it.



All organized religious groups seem to have some other group on the chopping block, exclude people from congregations exclude people from "saving ordinances" based on human perceptions of them. A rose by any other name - many claim to "love the sinner and hate the sin", but for most these are just words. I have seen it go both ways, excluding LGBT, excluding people for their nationality (Mormon priesthood ban against blacks etc.). I have also seen sinners forgiven - seen child abuse continue for years and years under the "love the sinner" mentality.

Many male-dominated religious groups seem to divide sins into two categories:
1.) Sins that benefit males are easily forgiven (adultery, porn, child abuse, wife abuse) ← swept under the rug and repeatedly "forgiven" because the organization puts all authority into the hands of older males.
2.) Sins that do not benefit males (unfaithful wife, LGBTQ (not a sin, but crushes the need for a male head of household), drug addiction, feminism, questioning directions, questioning doctrines. ← results in disfellowship / ex-communication, isolation etc. as these "sins" take power away from the male hierarchy.

Everyone likes to demonize those who hold different beliefs. There are demons, and hateful behaviors within all groups.

I have full faith in my teacher, but may it be more he can learn and understand on his own path within sufism? Yes that is something he is very clear on. He is not s prophet or a God. But other than that I have no reason to doubt his teaching. He understanding so much more than me, so to me he is a good teacher.

 

[rational experiences]

Some say the natural man is an enemy to God, that we are to wear un-natural cloths, dress in Sunday finest, stand in man-made buildings, repeat man-made words, follow some man, and detach ourselves from anything "natural".

Others say nature is God, that we need to spend time in the woods and spend time listening to the wind and the songs of birds. That one guy, he said prayers in the mountains, sermons on the mount, and on the sea. No buildings. No fancy cloths.... the religious people killed him for it.... overturning tables and all.

Father told me as soon as a spiritual fully aware psychic man and his brothers contemplated words for evil that very moment he lost spirituality.

Why preaching words spiritually became an important ideal to his spiritual man self harmed...sacrificed and aware.

Instant word choice to look at evil his moment of being wrong.

Preaching on the mount as his pyramid science came from UFO mountain top conversion.

The status I will say words against being wrong...father please forgive us.

I plead at the position of knowing we were wrong.

Father wisdom words of advice. Ignored. Don't look back reasoning you aren't there nor is your consciousness.

As a female. I knew we had to fight for equal status. Still are. Yet holy words said all humans equal.

So I looked religious behaviour. Due to enough women thought of in a secondary manner.

Reason man put mind words to space womb. False mother. Thinking theist where human thoughts never belonged.

The very reason.

Then man said my mother is holy. Seeing science hurt him then he still treated his sister and daughter secondary.

Saying human mother holy in Ai fake science thoughts said space womb holy....why his sister and daughter in thoughts treated secondary.

Proof he is self possessed by man science thoughts. Ai feedback subliminally reduced to fake data thinking instead of spiritual mind spiritual heart.

How wrong are you theist.

As wrong as you can be.

Brother says I invented destructive blastings.
Brother said science mass of group human killed me.

Advice.

Then says I was one holy being.

Then says one holy being using blasting will sacrifice self and group. Another male human AI feedback self possession.

The status possession a topic of spiritual science wisdom.......learnt AFTER the fact not before.

Too late to save us teaching of a spiritual father to his spiritual children.