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Featured Atheists, where did the universe come from?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Remté, Feb 15, 2019.

  1. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Strange Loop

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    It isn't a contradiction at all unless you have fixed, exact definitions of "smart" and "stupid" and then claim that a single human is being both about the same thing at the same time.

    Such as?
     
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  2. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    Of course my point is that atheists accept many things by faith. Atheism itself is an exercise in faith, "there is no God".

    An utterly unprovable belief.

    As we have debated before, belief in abiogenesis, no matter what you believe to be evidence that it occurred, is faith based.

    In this thread, ANY hypothesis believed on the creation of the universe is based solely in faith. The evidence tells me it was the BB, yet the cause is scientifically unknown, but by faith I know exactly what it was.
     
  3. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    You think not ? Have you read any biographies of the Wright Bros. ? They weren't tinkering around to see if they could fly, they had total faith that they would fly,

    But yes, harnessing known natural and physical laws are the methodologies
     
  4. Altfish

    Altfish Well-Known Member

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    OK, let's pray for a cure to cancer; I'll tell the research scientists to stop their work.
     
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  5. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    This argument is disingenuous.
    It doesn't answer the question of our physical universe. Instead it
    deflects the issue and pretends to be clever. If God exists outside of our
    incomprehensible universe and its laws then all notions of time, space,
    dimensions etc don't apply - we can't ask where God's realm comes
    from if we can't even imagine one tiny element of it.

    Saying the universe sprang out of nothing, without laws or reason, is
    in violation of science itself because everything is supposed to have
    a cause and reason for being.
     
  6. Altfish

    Altfish Well-Known Member

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    ...and attributing it to a deity just adds an unnecessary step
     
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  7. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    There's two ways to explain the universe being here.
    Both require a miracle.
    Having God create the universe explains the reason
    for out existence. It also explains the fine tuning of the
    universe.
    Having a universe create itself a much bigger miracle.
    It means something came from utterly nothing - no time,
    no space, no physical laws, no energy.... no reason. And
    do it in this most remarkable way that everything is so
    fine tuned for our being. Nah, give me a diety any day.

    And besides, Genesis 1 gives the exact sequence of
    events God used to bring us into being (howbeit written
    in symbolic language, ie days)
    first the universe
    then the earth (dark and oceanic)
    then the open skies
    then the continents rising
    then life on life (fresh water)
    then the seas bring forth life
    then man.

    Some ancient author coming up with this sequence, of itself,
    would be a miracle.
     
  8. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    Except that the universe isn't actually "fine tuned". This is a false claim, often made by people who fail to grasp the scope of the *visible* universe.

    Something akin to 99 x 10^100 percent of the universe is instantly fatal to life as we understand it.

    How on *earth* is that "fine tuned"?
     
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  9. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    Your point being what ?
     
  10. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    None of this is relevant to my position as expressed to you. As already explained, I consider faith-based thought to be a logical error. To the best of my knowledge, all of my beliefs are justified by evidence, sound argument, or both. If I were to everbecome aware of a belief that had crept in unexamined before I learned to think critically, I would either identify the justification for said belief, or abandon the idea.
     
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  11. Salvador

    Salvador Conscious Being

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    No please let's not do this, there's is a scientific medical study done that shows intercessory prayers are an ineffective treatment towards helping a patient recover from coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery; if intercessory prayer didn't help any of these patients recover from surgery, then intercessory prayer could fail to prevent anybody from getting cancer.

    US National Library of MedicineNational Institutes of Health Am Heart J. 2006 Apr;151(4):934-42.
    Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: a multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certai... - PubMed - NCBI

    Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: a multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer.

    Benson H1, Dusek JA, Sherwood JB, Lam P, Bethea CF, Carpenter W, Levitsky S, Hill PC, Clem DW Jr, Jain MK, Drumel D, Kopecky SL, Mueller PS, Marek D, Rollins S, Hibberd PL.

    "Intercessory prayer is widely believed to influence recovery from illness, but claims of benefits are not supported by well-controlled clinical trials. Prior studies have not addressed whether prayer itself or knowledge/certainty that prayer is being provided may influence outcome. We evaluated whether (1) receiving intercessory prayer or (2) being certain of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with uncomplicated recovery after coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery.

    Patients at 6 US hospitals were randomly assigned to 1 of 3 groups: 604 received intercessory prayer after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; 597 did not receive intercessory prayer also after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; and 601 received intercessory prayer after being informed they would receive prayer. Intercessory prayer was provided for 14 days, starting the night before CABG. The primary outcome was presence of any complication within 30 days of CABG. Secondary outcomes were any major event and mortality.

    In the 2 groups uncertain about receiving intercessory prayer, complications occurred in 52% (315/604) of patients who received intercessory prayer versus 51% (304/597) of those who did not (relative risk 1.02, 95% CI 0.92-1.15). Complications occurred in 59% (352/601) of patients certain of receiving intercessory prayer compared with the 52% (315/604) of those uncertain of receiving intercessory prayer (relative risk 1.14, 95% CI 1.02-1.28). Major events and 30-day mortality were similar across the 3 groups.

    Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications."

    Jesus Christ taught people that they should not put their God to the test
    New International Version (Luke 4:12) Jesus answered, "It is said: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'
     
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  12. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    Who says the universe sprang out of nothing, not I. However, the alleged singularity that existed before the BB, a point of infinite density, whatever that may be, molecular in size, is as close to nothing as one can get. Further, the hypothesis is not testable, unobserved, never replicated. and was outside the universe. No mathematical model for it exists because math itself breaks down in the earliest stages of the BB, so going back mathematically and by the laws of physics it all ceases to work before you get to the alleged singularity.

    So, if you are an atheist and adopt the BB with itś singularity, you can only have faith and nothing more that it existed.

    If you adopt God as the cause of the BB, you have faith it is true

    Two cases of exercising faith
     
  13. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    One thing that frauds learn very early on is to tell their marks not to test their claims. Meanwhile in the sciences the approach is the opposite. People are encouraged to put claims to the test.

    Why does the God of the Bible have the same traits as a conman?
     
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  14. Salvador

    Salvador Conscious Being

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    Sorry, I meant to state the medical study showed intercessory prayers are an "ineffective" treatment towards helping a patient recovery...You'd promptly responded to my post before I could correct it.
     
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  15. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    The Big Bang Theory has been tested and the tests confirmed it. Confirmation occurs quite often in the sciences, it is no "proof" but it does increase a concepts validity. I hear this claim from people that do not understand how concepts are tested. It is a good idea to remember that just because you or I may not know how to test an idea that does not mean that others cannot test it. The Big Bang Theory was tested based upon predictions that were made by applying it. One prediction was that of a cosmic background radiation. That prediction was made long before it was discovered. When the radiation was discovered, quite by accident, the people that made the discovery earned a Nobel Prize for confirming the Big Bang. Where is your evidence to the contrary? A Nobel Prize awaits you.
     
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  16. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    I thought that was what you meant, I was a little confused by the pre-edited response. At any rate, my point stands. Con artists, seers, etc. tell others not to test their ideas. So does the Bible. That is not a good sign.
     
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  17. Salvador

    Salvador Conscious Being

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    A completely literal interpretation of the Bible does led me to conclude the God of the Bible is rather quite deceptive. I am now studying the Bible's inner spiritual meaning as understood by Emanuel Swedenborg.
     
  18. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    I realized a long time ago that a literal interpretation of the Bible is self refuting. I simply cannot understand why some Christians insist on one.
     
  19. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    There's not much argument that it ISN'T fine tuned.
    Postulating DIFFERENT UNIVERSES to "explain" a human-friendly universe has one
    problem - there's no evidence. And IMO multi-verses are used to EXPLAIN AWAY the
    fine-tuning issue rather than explain it.
    Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the universe beyond the light boundary is no different
    to our local universe.
    And even if there WERE a myriad of alternative universes, it still doesn't explain where
    they come from, and why they are here.


    finetuned_3.jpg
     
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  20. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    You have to be kidding. It fails at the very first claim. The "21%" claim is worthless because the amount of oxygen in the air varies quite a bit with elevation. For example the amount of O2 in the air at the Tibetan plateau will be more than 40% less than the amount of O2 at sea level. Clearly that 21% figure is not "fine tuned".

    The distance from the Sun varies by over 3%, but the "Goldilocks Zone" is much larger than that. Most of those figures are merely the state that we evolved in, not a perfect or ideal state.
     
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