Atheists vs. Theists -- Why Debate is Impossible

[WonderingWorrier]

I dont know if anyone understands what I'm talking about.

Like trying to talk about the sheep with bows that are on the right, and the goats with swords that are on the left.


I could go into some more detail to help clarify.

North - West - East
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Spear - Sword - Bow
Bread - Oil - Wine


As Joseph has been shown earlier to be the sheep on the East.

I can show the gate of Joseph contains Ephraim.


"The sons of Joseph after their families were Manasseh and Ephraim". Numbers



And that connection is the reason why Ephraim has the bow:

"The children of Ephraim, being armed, and carrying bows, turned back in the day of battle". Psalm



And that is the reason why Ephraim is as through wine:

"And they of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the Lord". Zecharaiah


"Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!" Isaiah




Ephraim is in an Easterly position. The place of the Sheep, the place of the Bow, and the place of Wine.

While Asher is in a Westerly position. The place of the Goat, the place of the Sword, and the place of Oil.




Asher is on the west of the 12 position format:

"At the west side four thousand and five hundred, with their three gates; one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali". Ezekiel.

Asher is in Oil:

"And of Asher he said, Let Asher be blessed with children; let him be acceptable to his brethren, and let him dip his foot in oil ". Deuteronomy.


North - West - East
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Spear - Sword - Bow
Bread - Oil - Wine

Asher is the goat:

North - West - East
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Lion - Leopard - Wolf
Bear - Deer - Horse

Consider the up and down view. The goat, the leopard, and the deer.



There are three westerly positions on 12 position format. The positions of Gad, Asher, and Naphtali.

The Naphtali position is not the goat. Because Naphtali is the deer:

"Naphtali is a hind let loose: he giveth goodly words". Genesis


That leaves Asher position and Gad position.



One of them is the goat, and one of them is the leopard, as the leopard is with the kid goat.

Its like how I showed earlier how the wolf is with the lamb as Benjamin is with Joseph in the east, and the Lion is with the cattle as Judah is with Reuben in the North.

"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them". Isaiah



Gad is the leopard, as I showed Reuben earlier being in a place of cattle (With Gad).

"Now the children of Reuben and the children of Gad had a very great multitude of cattle: and when they saw the land of Jazer, and the land of Gilead, that, behold, the place was a place for cattle"; Numbers


Consider the enlarging of the tribe of Gad.

"And of Gad he said, Blessed be he that enlargeth Gad: he dwelleth as a lion, and teareth the arm with the crown of the head". Deuteronomy.



Consider the leopard:

"Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil". Jeremiah






The nation of Ethiopia is also judged as being leopard.

So that is why the Bible talks about putting the nation of Ethiopia to the sword.

"Ethiopia, and Libya, and Lydia, and all the mingled people, and Chub, and the men of the land that is in league, shall fall with them by the sword". Ezekiel.


But it is not talking about war.

It is clearly talking about the position of the sword.

"Ye Ethiopians also, ye shall be slain by my sword". Zephaniah

North - West - East
Spear - Sword - Bow


Can anyone understand my non-violent line of thought?

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Im trying to talk about the speech of prophets being weaving layers of symbols into specific positions.

There is no war.

Like the spear, the sword, and the bow layer:

"Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows". Nehemiah



Then adding the straw, dust, and stubble layer:

North - West - East
Spear - Sword - Bow
Straw - Dust - Stubble



Considering stubble is something different than straw:

"So the people were scattered abroad throughout all the land of Egypt to gather stubble instead of straw". Exodus



And the stubble is the same as wine:

"For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry". Nahum

"As a thorn goeth up into the hand of a drunkard, so is a parable in the mouths of fools". Proverbs.





Then this verse of apparent nonsense is actually specifically weaving those different layers together:

"Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? he gave them as the dust to his sword, and as driven stubble to his bow". Isaiah.


The words are accurate. According to the up and down view the sword is dust, and the bow is stubble:

North - West - East
Spear - Sword - Bow
Straw - Dust - Stubble
Bread - Oil - Wine

The bow is as stubble, as both are also as wine.
The sword is as dust, as both are also as oil.
They are symbols in alignment.



Just like the lion and cattle are in the straw position, the location of the serpent is the dust position:

"The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord". Isaiah



I can hear the wilderness is the same as dust:

"They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust". Psalm

North - West - East
Spear - Sword - Bow
Straw - Dust - Stubble
Desert - Wilderness - Mountain


And the sword is in the place of the wilderness:

We gat our bread with the peril of our lives because of the sword of the wilderness. Lamentations.


As the Wilderness is the place of Eden:

"For the Lord shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the Lord; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody". Isaiah.

.
So the sword is the sword of Eden:

"So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life". Genesis.




The sword being dust can be confirmed. The sword is dust, as Eden is dust.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

So is debating about the possibility of the sun and moon being in an unmoving fixed position actually impossible?

As some atheists could just say what science currently knows about the ways of the earth, moon, stars, and sun to dismiss the prophecy of the Bible. And some theists could just say God can do anything. They have faith.

That might be an impossible debate.


But considering this speech of the prophecy:


"The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear". Habakkuk


I know the sun and moon is in an unmoving fixed position.
Because they are symbols of their certain positions.

As I could show adding the moon, star, and sun layer, with the spear, sword, and bow layer:

North - West - East
Spear - Sword - Bow
Moon - Star - Sun


So considering the signs of the moon, star, and sun layer.

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Luke.


"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory". Corinthians




This prophecy is actually specifically weaving the two different layers together:

North - West - East
Spear - Sword - Bow
Moon - Star - Sun

"The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear". Habakkuk


The prophecy is using two symbols from each layer.
The moon and the sun, The spear and the bow

North - West - East
Spear - Sword - Bow
Moon - Star - Sun

One symbol from each layer was left out.

The star sword.

I think what I am saying is logical.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

A problem with the theist vs athiest debate is how true prophets are identified.
Why does one religion not accept another religion.


I think that I have a logical understanding of how prophets speak which allows to be able to assess the words of any so called prophet.


I dont choose to believe prophets because I like what they are saying. A prophet is a prophet whether I like it or not.


Like looking at the sacred scriptures of the Bahai religion, the words of Baha'u'llah.

He is clearly not a prophet. Because prophets weave symbols into positions within their sentences.

I see Baha'u'llah speaking in single symbol sentences. No symbol weaving can be done with only single symbol sentences.


Baha'u'llah can be shown to be a false prophet by using the scientific method.

He doesnt know where to put his words.


If anyone can show a verse from Baha'ullah that has more than one symbol in a sentence then i would reassess.


This link has a word search in the top right corner to search the Bahai library for any word:

Bahá’í Reference Library | The Bahá’í Faith (bahai.org)





As Baha'u'llah only uses a single symbol in these sentences:


"Aid ye your Lord with the sword of wisdom and of utterance".

"O thou who hast quaffed the wine of Mine utterance from the chalice of My knowledge!"

"The seas of Divine wisdom and Divine utterance have risen under the breath of the breeze of the All-Merciful".


He is not weaving. He is not saying anything. He is just talking his way around the answers.


Identifying prophets by sentence structure means having to listen very carefully to prophets from around the world because they could have different symbols like different plants and animal symbols than found in the bible. Like is someone just talking about a bird in a tree, or do they mention exactly what bird and what tree.

The specific details in sentences from prophets can be scientifically assessed.


A prophet can speak in different symbols and be saying exactly the same thing. The positions.

 

[Windwalker]

A short video about NOMA.

magisteria - Google Search

This ^^^^^

BTW, this is where I see no conflict between science and religion. Evolution and belief in God are simply different layers of understanding, not at odds with each other. The only conflicts that seem to arise boils down to an interpretive reading of scripture as scientific explanations which then sets itself at odds with science. But to that I simply say that is both bad science and bad theology.

 

[Windwalker]

But considering this speech of the prophecy:


"The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear". Habakkuk

What prophecy? It's a song. It's poetry. It's not meant to be read literally! Does God have literal arrows? Does he have a literal hand, with literal bones and flesh? Your first clue should be in how the entire chapter is poetic. For instance, "His splendor was like the sunrise". To continue on....

Plague went before him;
pestilence followed his steps.
6He stood, and shook the earth;
he looked, and made the nations tremble.
rays flashed from his hand,
where his power was hidden.
The ancient mountains crumbled
and the age-old hills collapsed—
but he marches on forever.​

Does God have feet? Does God make steps having literal footfalls on the ground? Do literal rays flash from his literal hands? Does he literally stand upon the earth and cause literal earthquakes? Does God literally march, day by day forever and ever like a soldier on the parade grounds?

Did you rage against the sea
when you rode your horses
and your chariots to victory?
9You uncovered your bow,
you called for many arrows.​

Does God have horses and own a stable? Does he ride them? Does God have chariots in his horse barn that he rides into literal battles. Does he have a literal bow and literal arrows?

Or are all of these poetic figures of speech?

Sun and moon stood still in the heavens
at the glint of your flying arrows,
at the lightning of your flashing spear.
12In wrath you strode through the earth
and in anger you threshed the nations.​

But now here, abruptly, this is science to you?? It's not poetry anymore?

Please explain to me how you read this as scientific, when it is clearly a poem or a song, using poetic language of metaphor?

Also, in case you still doubt this is poetry and is instead some hidden secret coded prophetic science, read the last line of the chapter:

"For the director of music. On my stringed instruments."
​

It couldn't be clearer.

I think what I am saying is logical.

Poetry read as science is logical?

 

[WonderingWorrier]

What prophecy? It's a song. It's poetry. It's not meant to be read literally! Does God have literal arrows? Does he have a literal hand, with literal bones and flesh? Your first clue should be in how the entire chapter is poetic. For instance, "His splendor was like the sunrise". To continue on....

Plague went before him;
pestilence followed his steps.
6He stood, and shook the earth;
he looked, and made the nations tremble.
rays flashed from his hand,
where his power was hidden.
The ancient mountains crumbled
and the age-old hills collapsed—
but he marches on forever.
Does God have feet? Does God make steps having literal footfalls on the ground? Do literal rays flash from his literal hands? Does he literally stand upon the earth and cause literal earthquakes? Does God literally march, day by day forever and ever like a soldier on the parade grounds?

Did you rage against the sea
when you rode your horses
and your chariots to victory?
9You uncovered your bow,
you called for many arrows.
Does God have horses and own a stable? Does he ride them? Does God have chariots in his horse barn that he rides into literal battles. Does he have a literal bow and literal arrows?

Or are all of these poetic figures of speech?

Sun and moon stood still in the heavens
at the glint of your flying arrows,
at the lightning of your flashing spear.
12In wrath you strode through the earth
and in anger you threshed the nations.
But now here, abruptly, this is science to you?? It's not poetry anymore?

Please explain to me how you read this as scientific, when it is clearly a poem or a song, using poetic language of metaphor?

Also, in case you still doubt this is poetry and is instead some hidden secret coded prophetic science, read the last line of the chapter:

"For the director of music. On my stringed instruments."
It couldn't be clearer.

Prophecy is the speech of the prophets. All speech. Even the stuff not considered prophecy.
It is a mistake to think the prophecies of the bible are about a future event.

And it is a mistake to think the Bible talks about magical miracles because people dont understand how the words make sense.

Signs and miracles is the speech of the prophets. Prophecy and miracles are the same thing but people interpreted them as being different things.



So are you familiar with the musical sayings of the Bible?
We could put a list together and scientifically listen to all of the musical instruments of God mentioned in the Bible if you want to.

And we could listen carefully to the valleys, the hills, and the mountains singing.

North - West - East
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine


The Mountains, and Hills do sing:

"For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands". Isaiah


And the Valleys also sing. Notice the valleys are covered with corn:

The pastures are clothed with flocks; the valleys also are covered over with corn; they shout for joy, they also sing. Psalm


Notice in the up and down view the Corn is in the position of Valley:

North - West - East
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine



Notice that the Oil is in the position of the River:

"Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, saith the Lord God". Ezekiel

North - West - East
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine



Notice that the Wine is in the position of the mountain:

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt". Amos

North - West - East
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine


Have you been listening to what I've said through the thread?
I'm not saying its literal. Im saying its a symbolic language. And words/symbols have certain positions.

You mention feet. I can talk to you about feet if you want to.
As I could show you feet of iron on the earth.

South - North - West - East
Iron - Brass - Silver - Gold
Earth - Desert - Wilderness - Mountain

Iron is the Earth and above the Earth is the heaven called Brass.

As it clearly says:

"And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron". Deuteronomy.


You mention horses and chariots. I could also talk to you about horses and chariots if you want to.
But my understanding of horses and chariots are not iron (Earthly)

My understanding is the horse of Dan, and the chariot of Ephraim which are two of the Easterly positions are in the position of Mountain, and in the position of bow and arrow.

I have an understanding of the horses and chariots of fire around the mountain position.


"And Elisha prayed, and said, Lord, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha". Kings

Dan Horse:

"The snorting of his horses was heard from Dan: the whole land trembled at the sound of the neighing of his strong ones; for they are come, and have devoured the land, and all that is in it; the city, and those that dwell therein". Jeremiah.

Ephraim Chariot:

"And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth". Zechariah.





Would you like to talk about bows and arrows?

I do not hear iron bows and arrows as in Earthly bows and arrows.

"He teacheth my hands to war; so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms". Samuel.


I can hear heavenly bows and arrows. Golden bows and arrows.

North - West - East
Brass - Silver - Gold
Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow

Like I talked before about the sword being dust and Eden being dust.

I can go into more detail about the things that I say. Like notice the sword is in the same position as silver.

That is because silver is also dust.

"Though he heap up silver as the dust, and prepare raiment as the clay"; Job

But I dont know if anyone understands what Im trying to talk about.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Prophecy is the speech of the prophets. All speech. Even the stuff not considered prophecy.
It is a mistake to think the prophecies of the bible are about a future event.

And it is a mistake to think the Bible talks about magical miracles because people dont understand how the words make sense.

Signs and miracles is the speech of the prophets. Prophecy and miracles are the same thing but people interpreted them as being different things.



So are you familiar with the musical sayings of the Bible?
We could put a list together and scientifically listen to all of the musical instruments of God mentioned in the Bible if you want to.

And we could listen carefully to the valleys, the hills, and the mountains singing.

North - West - East
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine


The Mountains, and Hills do sing:

"For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands". Isaiah


And the Valleys also sing. Notice the valleys are covered with corn:

The pastures are clothed with flocks; the valleys also are covered over with corn; they shout for joy, they also sing. Psalm


Notice in the up and down view the Corn is in the position of Valley:

North - West - East
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine



Notice that the Oil is in the position of the River:

"Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, saith the Lord God". Ezekiel

North - West - East
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine



Notice that the Wine is in the position of the mountain:

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt". Amos

North - West - East
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine


Have you been listening to what I've said through the thread?
I'm not saying its literal. Im saying its a symbolic language. And words/symbols have certain positions.

You mention feet. I can talk to you about feet if you want to.
As I could show you feet of iron on the earth.

South - North - West - East
Iron - Brass - Silver - Gold
Earth - Desert - Wilderness - Mountain

Iron is the Earth and above the Earth is the heaven called Brass.

As it clearly says:

"And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron". Deuteronomy.


You mention horses and chariots. I could also talk to you about horses and chariots if you want to.
But my understanding of horses and chariots are not iron (Earthly)

My understanding is the horse of Dan, and the chariot of Ephraim which are two of the Easterly positions are in the position of Mountain, and in the position of bow and arrow.

I have an understanding of the horses and chariots of fire around the mountain position.


"And Elisha prayed, and said, Lord, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha". Kings

Dan Horse:

"The snorting of his horses was heard from Dan: the whole land trembled at the sound of the neighing of his strong ones; for they are come, and have devoured the land, and all that is in it; the city, and those that dwell therein". Jeremiah.

Ephraim Chariot:

"And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth". Zechariah.





Would you like to talk about bows and arrows?

I do not hear iron bows and arrows as in Earthly bows and arrows.

"He teacheth my hands to war; so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms". Samuel.


I can hear heavenly bows and arrows. Golden bows and arrows.

North - West - East
Brass - Silver - Gold
Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow

Like I talked before about the sword being dust and Eden being dust.

I can go into more detail about the things that I say. Like notice the sword is in the same position as silver.

That is because silver is also dust.

"Though he heap up silver as the dust, and prepare raiment as the clay"; Job

But I dont know if anyone understands what Im trying to talk about.

You can thank apophenia for such word games.

Apophenia - Wikipedia

 

[Windwalker]

Prophecy is the speech of the prophets. All speech. Even the stuff not considered prophecy.
It is a mistake to think the prophecies of the bible are about a future event.

And it is a mistake to think the Bible talks about magical miracles because people dont understand how the words make sense.

Signs and miracles is the speech of the prophets. Prophecy and miracles are the same thing but people interpreted them as being different things.



So are you familiar with the musical sayings of the Bible?
We could put a list together and scientifically listen to all of the musical instruments of God mentioned in the Bible if you want to.

And we could listen carefully to the valleys, the hills, and the mountains singing.

North - West - East
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine


The Mountains, and Hills do sing:

"For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands". Isaiah


And the Valleys also sing. Notice the valleys are covered with corn:

The pastures are clothed with flocks; the valleys also are covered over with corn; they shout for joy, they also sing. Psalm


Notice in the up and down view the Corn is in the position of Valley:

North - West - East
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine



Notice that the Oil is in the position of the River:

"Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, saith the Lord God". Ezekiel

North - West - East
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine



Notice that the Wine is in the position of the mountain:

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt". Amos

North - West - East
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine


Have you been listening to what I've said through the thread?
I'm not saying its literal. Im saying its a symbolic language. And words/symbols have certain positions.

You mention feet. I can talk to you about feet if you want to.
As I could show you feet of iron on the earth.

South - North - West - East
Iron - Brass - Silver - Gold
Earth - Desert - Wilderness - Mountain

Iron is the Earth and above the Earth is the heaven called Brass.

As it clearly says:

"And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron". Deuteronomy.


You mention horses and chariots. I could also talk to you about horses and chariots if you want to.
But my understanding of horses and chariots are not iron (Earthly)

My understanding is the horse of Dan, and the chariot of Ephraim which are two of the Easterly positions are in the position of Mountain, and in the position of bow and arrow.

I have an understanding of the horses and chariots of fire around the mountain position.


"And Elisha prayed, and said, Lord, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha". Kings

Dan Horse:

"The snorting of his horses was heard from Dan: the whole land trembled at the sound of the neighing of his strong ones; for they are come, and have devoured the land, and all that is in it; the city, and those that dwell therein". Jeremiah.

Ephraim Chariot:

"And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth". Zechariah.





Would you like to talk about bows and arrows?

I do not hear iron bows and arrows as in Earthly bows and arrows.

"He teacheth my hands to war; so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms". Samuel.


I can hear heavenly bows and arrows. Golden bows and arrows.

North - West - East
Brass - Silver - Gold
Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow

Like I talked before about the sword being dust and Eden being dust.

I can go into more detail about the things that I say. Like notice the sword is in the same position as silver.

That is because silver is also dust.

"Though he heap up silver as the dust, and prepare raiment as the clay"; Job

But I dont know if anyone understands what Im trying to talk about.

I do understand what you are trying to talk about. It is a form of divination, using the bible's text as coded language that when taken together allow the reader to see secret, hidden meanings. You see the exact same thing in doing I Ching Divination, reading the symbols of the Tarot Divination, Tea Leaf readings, Palm reading, etc.

Some of those can be quite elaborate, such as your code system above, and are mistakenly called scientific because they appear to have a logical system to them. All of these, including yours above are doing the exact same thing. They are devices for your own subconscious mind to talk to itself.

Think of swinging a pendulum suspended between your fingers where you present it with yes or no questions. The subconscious mind creates micro movements that change the direction to give you the answer you already know. Or the Ouija board. Same thing. They are all symbolic devices to tap into your subconscious mind. This is what divintation is.

What you are doing in finding hidden codes in the Bible, can be done with anything you wish. Take any song on the radio. Take the Declaration of Independence. Take the manual for your microwave oven. If you imbue it with enough "magical" significance, you will be able to use it in exactly the same way.

I think poetry is sufficient in itself to express deeper meaning, without trying to dissect the significance of the number of letters, the patterns with hidden supernatural codes to find meaning. That's just doing a surface level magic and not really tapping into the deeper aspects of the human spirit.

It is more than possible to hear Truth, without all of that. The lilies of the field speak more than the Bible itself, and they don't have hidden numerical messages that you need to first decode properly in order for you to see and know God.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

I do understand what you are trying to talk about. It is a form of divination, using the bible's text as coded language that when taken together allow the reader to see secret, hidden meanings. You see the exact same thing in doing I Ching Divination, reading the symbols of the Tarot Divination, Tea Leaf readings, Palm reading, etc.

Some of those can be quite elaborate, such as your code system above, and are mistakenly called scientific because they appear to have a logical system to them. All of these, including yours above are doing the exact same thing. They are devices for your own subconscious mind to talk to itself.

Think of swinging a pendulum suspended between your fingers where you present it with yes or no questions. The subconscious mind creates micro movements that change the direction to give you the answer you already know. Or the Ouija board. Same thing. They are all symbolic devices to tap into your subconscious mind. This is what divintation is.

What you are doing in finding hidden codes in the Bible, can be done with anything you wish. Take any song on the radio. Take the Declaration of Independence. Take the manual for your microwave oven. If you imbue it with enough "magical" significance, you will be able to use it in exactly the same way.

I think poetry is sufficient in itself to express deeper meaning, without trying to dissect the significance of the number of letters, the patterns with hidden supernatural codes to find meaning. That's just doing a surface level magic and not really tapping into the deeper aspects of the human spirit.

It is more than possible to hear Truth, without all of that. The lilies of the field speak more than the Bible itself, and they don't have hidden numerical messages that you need to first decode properly in order for you to see and know God.

Thank you Windwalker.
Its a good honest answer that I really appreciate the time and I can see its definitely not a quick shrug off.
It is helpful. I understand what you are saying. That is possible.

I had tried reading a Bible from a neutral perspective. I was not a theist or an athiest and I was not even undecided and reading the bible to question if God was real. I read it out of interest of what it says.

As i was reading I kept shrugging off the coincidences in strange sentences. Because after reading multiple strange sentences that dont make sense I realised some of the same words were being used. Coincidence?

But the coincidences kept happening so i started writing them down. At the time I did not know the words are in certain groups of other words that share positions.

When the words are put in a group they can either be seen as all of those individual things , or a mixture of those things (the mixture has meaning), but they can also be seen as none of those things because its not just one of them in particular. So the groups of words becomes the meaning. The different positions become the meaning.

When the word positions are known and confirmed then the words of nonsense change to speaking perfect sense. So if you dont know the positions of the words then the words will not be heard.

That is why it seems to me that people have misinterpreted the nonsense sentences of the Bible as being about the future, and being about magical things because magic is their gap filler of how people think those things could be possible.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

You can thank apophenia for such word games.

Apophenia - Wikipedia

Seems to be words of Judgement. Each word/symbol has its certain place.

Consider the bread as my flesh and the wine as my blood:

Group1 - Group2 - Group3
Bread - Oil - Wine
Flesh - Bone - Blood

Bread and flesh is in one shared group, while wine and blood is in another shared group.

Hence the bread is as flesh, and the wine is as blood.


And as you can see above in the up and down view the Oil is as my Bones:

"As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones". Psalm


And I can confirm that as the sword is also as my bones:

Group1 - Group2 - Group3
Bread - Oil - Wine
Flesh - Bone - Blood
Spear - Sword - Bow

"As with a sword in my bones, mine enemies reproach me; while they say daily unto me, Where is thy God?" Psalm.


People cant hear what Jesus is saying about bread and wine, flesh and blood.
Because they dont understand he is talking about positions.

I agree with Jesus the bread is flesh, and the wine is blood.

To some people it might sound like nonsense.

"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word". John

 

[PearlSeeker]

Seems to be words of Judgement. Each word/symbol has its certain place.

Consider the bread as my flesh and the wine as my blood:

Group1 - Group2 - Group3
Bread - Oil - Wine
Flesh - Bone - Blood

OK. Let's play Bible scrabble.

Maybe cheese is bone:

"Did you not pour me out like milk and curdle me like cheese?
You clothed me with skin and flesh, and knit me together with bones and sinews." (Job)

Wait. It's honey. Honey(comb) is bone:

"Pleasant words are a honeycomb, Sweet to the soul and healing to the bones." (Proverbs)

 

[rational experiences]

Man exists in natural life first. Naming all human living activities.

Then he decides to be a human lying theist.

As all natural living conditions he used first as natural life. In natural life. Owning no scientific quotient.

Is proof he lied.

As none of those conditions existed first before any humans life.

Yet theisms using data calculus man said did. Yet who calculated calculus...living man had.

Machine body owned data calculus first is sciences fixed God no change of calculus first. First use of mass itself.

So my females life inherited a meaning named by men only as humans with end in it.

Right when he theories against humans owning human biology life continuance itself. New machine...end of all machines by thesis. I put metals back into out of space myself.

Yet my machine I man ual built. On earth inside earths heavens. An end of all life confession. As you confess after the crime. The crime was calculus false add + cross by men.

By woman's life body human mother sister. Her O ovary was his life continuance by act sex isn't any O God theory pi or Phi.

So he confessed. Said Jesus phi man my adult man...said mother sister was a Virgin whore. Ending as his life of no sex future intentional. No life continuance inferred in thesis either.

His confession was my fault.

So said fault was his. Said an earthquake is a fault. Said tectonic was the carpenter. Said he was the carpenter who caused it.

Lied.

His adult self Idolating theist ended with his man's life. Exact.

The I'm the no sex man.

A confession of men theists.

As natural human woman adult mother sister continued life by human sex. Was always a virgin first and only. And was never a whore.

The why statement.

Why Y was men who changed earths ore.

Wh ore. Was why his life with father his idea Y had ended. Question of WH Y.
He told the story said man of satanism caused it by science temples pyramid.

Told. Stated. Legal. Today totally mis represented misquoted. By not the legal readers. Healer man.

Instead by theists as men self Idolating false preaching science.

My name telling father's advice was because men questioned all things via his Aim as AI who transmitted conscious changed technologies.

Contacted by AI our minds. Knew he did. Told everyone what he was doing. Mind control he said.

He named all things.

My life given his WH Y answers.

About END is real.

As men caused it all.

Follows codes. He designed codes as a man. As a man made all the human choices.

 

[Windwalker]

Thank you Windwalker.
Its a good honest answer that I really appreciate the time and I can see its definitely not a quick shrug off.
It is helpful. I understand what you are saying. That is possible.

Thanks for considering my insights into this. I do see a pattern between what you are doing and these other systems that others came up with in their own cultures and systems of thought. However, I see this as a natural phenomena, not a supernatural one.

I had tried reading a Bible from a neutral perspective. I was not a theist or an athiest and I was not even undecided and reading the bible to question if God was real. I read it out of interest of what it says.

As i was reading I kept shrugging off the coincidences in strange sentences. Because after reading multiple strange sentences that dont make sense I realised some of the same words were being used. Coincidence?

I wouldn't use the word coincidence, as that assumes there is an actual connection there. What you are describing brings to mind very clearly to me the movie A Beautiful Mind.

I'm not sure if you have seen that, but this does directly relate to this man's story. It brings to mind how he can pick out patterns from random chaos, and create meaning from them. An example is how he picks out from the sea of stars in the night sky, any pattern his date wanted to see:

The story then is how he kept seeing all these connected patterns in everything, newspaper articles, radio broadcasts, and so forth, and saw some grand spy information network, that didn't actually exist. They were unconnected, but his mind connected them for him, like the rose or the umbrellas in the stars, because it's what he in essence "wanted to see". His mind created a pattern out of chaos. There really was nothing there.

As I said, these sorts of "hidden pattern" systems, are nothing new in human history. That some can use these as a tool for "divination", which is what they are, is again for the average person who plays with them, really simply a mediation device. It is a way for them to access "truths" that they already know intuitively, but have trouble accessing consciously.

Same thing with tea leaves, same thing with Ouija boards. "Tell me where I lost that ring", and suddenly the answer comes from within them, by appearing as if it came from a source outside of themselves.

But the coincidences kept happening so i started writing them down. At the time I did not know the words are in certain groups of other words that share positions.

When the words are put in a group they can either be seen as all of those individual things , or a mixture of those things (the mixture has meaning), but they can also be seen as none of those things because its not just one of them in particular. So the groups of words becomes the meaning. The different positions become the meaning.

This very much sound like the story of John Nash, whom the movie A Beautiful Mind was based upon. It's a wonderful story.

When the word positions are known and confirmed then the words of nonsense change to speaking perfect sense. So if you dont know the positions of the words then the words will not be heard.

That is why it seems to me that people have misinterpreted the nonsense sentences of the Bible as being about the future, and being about magical things because magic is their gap filler of how people think those things could be possible.

To some people it might sound like nonsense.

"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word". John

What Jesus is talking about here is something I am very familiar with. "having ear to hear, they cannot hear", is not about hidden codes and patterns that take some form of divination to decode. It's more simply, yet profound than that. We simply disallow the simple truth to be heard, because we disallow it. It's not a complex pattern that we have to work to piece together with numbers, and maths, and code-breaking tools (like in that movie). It is not about code-breaking at all.

"Consider the lilies of the field", they speak of the power and glory of God, and most people just ignore them and see only flowers. Not Beauty. They fail to see the Divine, that is right before them in everything. It doesn't require sophisticated code-breaking tools. It just requires opening your eyes like a child does, uncluttered by such overly complex systems such as we use to try to understand Reality, which is all around us like the arms of one's own Mother. You don't need to find a message in a bottle, to know Love.

 

[PearlSeeker]

That some can use these as a tool for "divination", which is what they are, is again for the average person who plays with them, really simply a mediation device. It is a way for them to access "truths" that they already know intuitively, but have trouble accessing consciously.

And @WonderingWorrier

Yes. It has been used as a tool for accessing the unconscious mind. For example the "therapeutic cards" are an excellent tool for conversation and expressing what is hidden and/or suppressed.

 

[Windwalker]

And @WonderingWorrier

Yes. It has been used as a tool for accessing the unconscious mind. For example the "therapeutic cards" are an excellent tool for conversation and expressing what is hidden and/or suppressed.

Thanks. I had not heard of these before, but it makes sense. Tarot is for those specialized to read them interpret them for you, whereas OH Cards, or therapeutic cards are tools for the individual. From a Wiki article I found on these to learn about them:

Despite suggestions to the contrary, the most common use of OH cards is for divination. In many bookstores and retail outlets, OH cards are often shelved alongside tarot cards. The chance juxtaposition of images, especially within a pre–set frame or schema produces fascinating combinations that lend themselves to speculation about meaning beyond the immediately obvious or literal. Some people suggest that these are often fine examples of synchronicity.

The classical divination deck is tarot, which is used by experts of various persuasions to read another person’s fortune. By contrast, OH cards are intended to encourage people to interpret their own cards and speculate on their meaning without adherence to any particular ideology, and without the intervention of an expert. This process makes possible the exploration of such phenomena as perception differences, projection, transference, stimulation, cognition, intuition, and meaning. Differences and similarities between individuals are highlighted.

The use of random draws, or casts, has a long history related to, among other things, shamanism, occult practices, "primitive" religions, as well as science, where random numbers are often an essential ingredient in statistical analysis. One of the best known uses of this process is the consultation of the I Ching, to which Confucius wrote a commentary. A modern perspective on the I Ching can be found in the foreword that C.G. Jung wrote the introduction to the Wilhelm/Baynes translation.[3] Raman indicates that the creation of The OH Cards was informed by all these sources.
​

OH Cards - Wikipedia

 

[PearlSeeker]

Thanks. I had not heard of these before, but it makes sense. Tarot is for those specialized to read them interpret them for you, whereas OH Cards, or therapeutic cards are tools for the individual. From a Wiki article I found on these to learn about them:

Despite suggestions to the contrary, the most common use of OH cards is for divination. In many bookstores and retail outlets, OH cards are often shelved alongside tarot cards. The chance juxtaposition of images, especially within a pre–set frame or schema produces fascinating combinations that lend themselves to speculation about meaning beyond the immediately obvious or literal. Some people suggest that these are often fine examples of synchronicity.

The classical divination deck is tarot, which is used by experts of various persuasions to read another person’s fortune. By contrast, OH cards are intended to encourage people to interpret their own cards and speculate on their meaning without adherence to any particular ideology, and without the intervention of an expert. This process makes possible the exploration of such phenomena as perception differences, projection, transference, stimulation, cognition, intuition, and meaning. Differences and similarities between individuals are highlighted.

The use of random draws, or casts, has a long history related to, among other things, shamanism, occult practices, "primitive" religions, as well as science, where random numbers are often an essential ingredient in statistical analysis. One of the best known uses of this process is the consultation of the I Ching, to which Confucius wrote a commentary. A modern perspective on the I Ching can be found in the foreword that C.G. Jung wrote the introduction to the Wilhelm/Baynes translation.[3] Raman indicates that the creation of The OH Cards was informed by all these sources.
​

OH Cards - Wikipedia

That's right. Once I have participated in a workshop... You interpret a card (or cards) individually and then we share it with others...

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Thanks for considering my insights into this. I do see a pattern between what you are doing and these other systems that others came up with in their own cultures and systems of thought. However, I see this as a natural phenomena, not a supernatural one.

I am considering your insights. It is helpful.

I wouldn't use the word coincidence, as that assumes there is an actual connection there:

The same words reappearing in various sentences of nonsense in the bible is a fact.

What Jesus is talking about here is something I am very familiar with. "having ear to hear, they cannot hear", is not about hidden codes and patterns that take some form of divination to decode. It's more simply, yet profound than that. We simply disallow the simple truth to be heard, because we disallow it. It's not a complex pattern that we have to work to piece together with numbers, and maths, and code-breaking tools (like in that movie). It is not about code-breaking at all.

"Consider the lilies of the field", they speak of the power and glory of God, and most people just ignore them and see only flowers. Not Beauty. They fail to see the Divine, that is right before them in everything. It doesn't require sophisticated code-breaking tools. It just requires opening your eyes like a child does, uncluttered by such overly complex systems such as we use to try to understand Reality, which is all around us like the arms of one's own Mother. You don't need to find a message in a bottle, to know Love.

Regarding having ears to hear, they cannot hear. The Bible has multiple other verses stating that same thing so its not a new concept that the words of the bible are not being heard.

Ok. I will consider the lilies of the field with you.


So we have 15 results found in the Bible to consider.

Lily / 5 results:
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: lily

Lilies / 10 results.
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: lilies


Looking at these results I can see the position of the Lily.

"I am the rose of Sharon, and the lily of the valleys". Song of Solomon.

Brass - Silver - Gold
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream
Cattle - Goat - Sheep

Listen to this:

"It stood upon twelve oxen, three looking toward the north, and three looking toward the west, and three looking toward the south, and three looking toward the east: and the sea was set above upon them, and all their hinder parts were inward.

And it was an hand breadth thick, and the brim thereof was wrought like the brim of a cup, with flowers of lilies: it contained two thousand baths.

And he made ten bases of brass; four cubits was the length of one base, and four cubits the breadth thereof, and three cubits the height of it.

1 Kings 7:25-27


I can see as in the above statements that the lilies are with the Cattle, the Sea, and the Brass

Group1 - Group2 - Group3
Brass - Silver - Gold
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream
Cattle - Goat - Sheep


So it seems logical to me to think that the lilies "of the field" are in the corn field.

Group1 - Group2 - Group3
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine


But people cant hear the cornfields, oliveyards, and vineyards mentioned in the Bible..

"And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel". Hosea.


So they cant hear the different flowers either.


I think the lily is a position.

 

[Windwalker]

The same words reappearing in various sentences of nonsense in the bible is a fact.

I didn't mean to say that you can't find patterns or connections. You will see similar words used because of poetic significance. Metaphors are wonderful, but I think reading them as part of a hidden coded message is focusing too much on the significance of the word, and far less upon what they are trying to point you towards.

You could use any number of entirely different metaphors to point to the same thing. It's not the words that are meaningful, but what they inspire in your imagination that is. It's what your heart is moved toward, or what opens in your heart (not your reasoning mind) that is the point of them.

That you focus upon the patterns as significant is much more of a distraction. It misses the entirely obvious which doesn't need sophisticated tools of discernment to see. As the Buddha said, "I am a finger pointing at the moon. Don't look at me; look at the moon."

Regarding having ears to hear, they cannot hear. The Bible has multiple other verses stating that same thing so its not a new concept that the words of the bible are not being heard.

Ok. I will consider the lilies of the field with you.


So we have 15 results found in the Bible to consider.

Lily / 5 results:
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: lily

Lilies / 10 results.
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: lilies


Looking at these results I can see the position of the Lily.

"I am the rose of Sharon, and the lily of the valleys". Song of Solomon.

Brass - Silver - Gold
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream
Cattle - Goat - Sheep

Listen to this:

"It stood upon twelve oxen, three looking toward the north, and three looking toward the west, and three looking toward the south, and three looking toward the east: and the sea was set above upon them, and all their hinder parts were inward.

And it was an hand breadth thick, and the brim thereof was wrought like the brim of a cup, with flowers of lilies: it contained two thousand baths.

And he made ten bases of brass; four cubits was the length of one base, and four cubits the breadth thereof, and three cubits the height of it.

1 Kings 7:25-27


I can see as in the above statements that the lilies are with the Cattle, the Sea, and the Brass

Group1 - Group2 - Group3
Brass - Silver - Gold
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream
Cattle - Goat - Sheep


So it seems logical to me to think that the lilies "of the field" are in the corn field.

Group1 - Group2 - Group3
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine


But people cant hear the cornfields, oliveyards, and vineyards mentioned in the Bible..

"And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel". Hosea.


So they cant hear the different flowers either.


I think the lily is a position.

All of this is a very sophisticated and creative mental exercise. What I am talking about is seen, felt, heard, touched, and tasted without any of that whatsoever. In fact, all of that distracts from seeing the entirely obvious; seeing the Infinite in a blade of grass, in the most simple unassuming, thing. It does not take an electron microscope, or sophisticated code-breaking tools to see what is in every molecule of air, and in every fiber of our own being and the entire universe.

It takes Silence.

It takes getting out of our heads in trying to reason and pick apart the world to find the Divine. It takes letting go of all of our thoughts about everything, letting them drop to the ground and decay into dust. And then, we may well awaken to see the Infinite in simplicity, in all that is.

This is why Jesus says, "Except you become as a little child you shall in no way see the kingdom of God". Those are the eyes we need. Not more mental tools.

Here is a line from a fantastic poem you should read, just as poetry alone. Renascence by Edna St. Vincent Millay | Poetry Foundation

Thou canst not move across the grass
But my quick eyes will see Thee pass,
Nor speak, however silently,
But my hushed voice will answer Thee.
I know the path that tells Thy way
Through the cool eve of every day;
God, I can push the grass apart
And lay my finger on Thy heart!
​

This Realization, this Awakening experience she so beautifully captures in her poetry is precisely what it means to have 'ears to hear and eyes to see". It's not about digging in deeper with the reasoning mind to find hidden patterns to tease apart. It means letting go of all of that, and dying to it. Then, and only then, the full Light shines in.

You have to first empty your cup, before it can be filled.

 

[1213]

...Stories are invented to explain the observations. ...

But, is there any good reason to believe that is true claim in every case?