Atheists vs. Theists -- Why Debate is Impossible

[muhammad_isa]

That isn't the extent of what empirical evidence for God could be.

... but feel free to point out something that:

- isn't empirical evidence,
- is evidence for God, and
- is demonstrably true.

What are you on about?
What will you "allow" as evidence in your world?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What are you on about?

Just what you were talking about: evidence for God that isn't empirical.

What will you "allow" as evidence in your world?

Just make your case; if I reject it unreasonably, everyone else in the thread will see that I'm being unreasonable.

 

[Valjean]

You can say it, but most would not agree.

Feelings of right or wrong, propriety and impropriety, are just that -- feelings. They're learned, and vary widely by culture. They're not facts, fact-based, or derived analytically.
So how could conscience be a reliable investigational modality or epistemic metric?

I don't think you are that aware, that these narrations are not identical to those in the Torah.

I'm aware. They're separate narratives, with separate errors.

What about the exodus from Egypt is outright falsehood?

The entire narrative.
No slaughter of Hebrew children. No Plagues. No signifant populations of Israelites or slaves, no exodus from Egypt, no Red Sea parting, no forty years in the wilderness -- nothing. No artifacts, written reports or any other evidence.

There is no indication of large numbers of Israelites in Egypt. No artifacts, bones, dwellings, mention in records -- nothing. In a long standing, literate, desert civilization like Egypt, there would have been evidence.

The world's superpower suddenly loosing pretty much its entire workforce -- in fact, practically the entire estimated Egyptian population -- would have made headlines all over the world, so to speak, and had quite an effect on the handful of remaining Egyptians.
Problem: No indication, physical or narrative, anywhere, outside the book of Exodus, itself; that anything like this happened.

2.5 -- 3 million Israelites, plus livestock and belongings, would have formed a column hundreds of Km long.
The Sinai desert could not support such a population for a week, much less 40 years.
Millions of people and livestock, living in a hot, dry desert, would have left mountains of preserved artifacts. There are none.

..the flood is not mentioned to be global, in the Qur'an.

Fair enough. The Qur'an is, purportedly, a single narrative, of more recent origin than the biblical anthology. I'd expect it to be more consistent and reliable.

What creation myth? What exactly is the falsehood?

Doesn't the Qur'an have the Earth created before the stars or Sun?
As for the Bible, there are two different sequences of creation, and neither is factual.

The fact that mankind is created from clay / water / physical material, does not fully explain whether Adam was made by "poof" or some other way.

How long a creation period is generally believed? Organisms come and go. Most things that ever lived are extinct. That''s a lot of creating going on.

Fundamentalist Christians believe all this happened in ~6,000 years. That would call for a pretty rapid rate of creation.

 

[Valjean]

..because I see that the Torah, Psalms, NT and Qur'an knit together in a coherent fashion and cannot believe that it is all conspired fantasy.

Personal incredulity, then?
Rowling's Harry Potter stories and Lewis' Space Trilogy are knit together coherently, too; more coherently than either the Bible or Qur'an, as a matter of fact.
They're still fantasies.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Just make your case; if I reject it unreasonably, everyone else in the thread will see that I'm being unreasonable.

Ha! What a joke!
You aren't interesting in learning anything..

You just want to pick holes in what I say.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ha! What a joke!
You aren't interesting in learning anything..

You just want to pick holes in what I say.

Then go ahead: show how well-supported Islam is and make a fool of me.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Feelings of right or wrong, propriety and impropriety, are just that -- feelings..

..so they serve no purpose?

The entire narrative.
No slaughter of Hebrew children. No Plagues. No signifant populations of Israelites or slaves, no exodus from Egypt, no Red Sea parting, no forty years in the wilderness -- nothing. No artifacts, written reports or any other evidence..

Oh no .. not another one..
You really think that you can say something is "outright falsehood", because you cannot find an historical account, other than scripture .. about something that happened 1000's of years ago.
Really???

The world's superpower suddenly loosing pretty much its entire workforce -- in fact, practically the entire estimated Egyptian population -- would have made headlines all over the world, so to speak, and had quite an effect on the handful of remaining Egyptians..

..you've lost me .. where is this mentioned in the Qur'an.

Doesn't the Qur'an have the Earth created before the stars or Sun?

Not at all..

As for the Bible, there are two different sequences of creation, and neither is factual..

The OT is comprised of ancient texts .. I wouldn't expect them to be accurate, although before I discovered the Qur'an, what else did I have other than the NT.

Fundamentalist Christians believe all this happened in ~6,000 years. That would call for a pretty rapid rate of creation.

The Qur'an does not give any chronological information other than saying that a day for God is like a 1000 years that we measure.
i.e. time is relative and not as it might appear .. tick-tock

 

[SkepticThinker]

..because I see that the Torah, Psalms, NT and Qur'an knit together in a coherent fashion and cannot believe that it is all conspired fantasy.


Why wouldn't I be?


Clear evidence that proves that the Bible and Qur'an are NOT coherent, and that turning my back on God would be to my advantage .. in this life and a [possible] next.
Honesty is the best policy .. even if it appears that it works against you.
War, naturally, is a separate issue, but in the breaking of treaties it is not.


You are rude and inpatient.
Why would you expect to find any cosmic truth in this manner?
You have already decided, and your arrogant position is
"materialism is the default belief .. prove it"
You only serve to deceive yourself.
It is not possible that God can show you anything like this, other than striking you down. I wouldn't push it, if I were you..
..but then, you are not me.

I reply to your posts and specific questions..
I cannot and will not continue to respond to pointless rhetoric.


Yeah, yeah .. and I throw out a materialist ideology.
It doesn't "taste good" to me.
..and I've got pretty good taste buds, I would say.

Well,. if there are God(s), then said God(s) should know exactly what would convince a non-believer that God(s) exist. The fact that no such thing has happened to me, indicates that either God(s) don't want me to believe in them, or they don't care if I believe in them. If God(s) want to strike me down for my lack of belief ... well ... I'm waiting. I've been waiting for 20 years now. When do you think it's going to happen??

You can make all the grand claims that you want to, but it's pretty clear that they're not backed with any sort of useful evidence.

 

[SkepticThinker]

..so they serve no purpose?


Oh no .. not another one..
You really think that you can say something is "outright falsehood", because you cannot find an historical account, other than scripture .. about something that happened 1000's of years ago.
Really???


..you've lost me .. where is this mentioned in the Qur'an.


Not at all..


The OT is comprised of ancient texts .. I wouldn't expect them to be accurate, although before I discovered the Qur'an, what else did I have other than the NT.


The Qur'an does not give any chronological information other than saying that a day for God is like a 1000 years that we measure.
i.e. time is relative and not as it might appear .. tick-tock

Whoa there, you "wouldn't expect them to be accurate?"
But you just said, ".because I see that the Torah, Psalms, NT and Qur'an knit together in a coherent fashion and cannot believe that it is all conspired fantasy."

 

[F1fan]

..because I see that the Torah, Psalms, NT and Qur'an knit together in a coherent fashion and cannot believe that it is all conspired fantasy.

Only you are calling it a conspiracy. Rational minds understand the history and how cultures evolve over time. This has been explained to you over and over by RF member joelr. You have no rebuttal to his explanation, only denial. This is the phenomenon he has explained:

Syncretism in religion

Religious syncretism exhibits the blending of two or more religious belief systems into a new system, or the incorporation of beliefs from unrelated traditions into a religious tradition. It is contrasted by the idea of multiple religious belonging and polytheism, respectively.​

The God Yahweh in Judaism evolved from the polytheistic Caananites, and Christianity's God evolved from Judaism, and Islam's God evolved from Christianity and Judaism, and Baha'i evolved from all three, and the Mormons evolved from Christianity, as did the JW's, and the Urantia folks.

Critical thinkers aren't calling this phenomenon any sort of conspiracy, you are creating this straw man defense as a means to deflect from you having no rebuttal. We all see your tactic here. Cultures and religions evolve over time as a natural phenomenon. Some religions die off. Those that succeed tend to tragment into factions. Islam has two major factions in Sunni and Shiite. Christianity has two major factions in the orthodox and protestant. There are factions among all these. The "truth" is not cohesive or uniform.

Why wouldn't I be?

You are committed to system of belief that is not evidence based, that appeals to the emotions, and you deny rational explanations as to why your claims are false, and your assumptions unwarranted.

Clear evidence that proves that the Bible and Qur'an are NOT coherent, and that turning my back on God would be to my advantage .. in this life and a [possible] next.
Honesty is the best policy .. even if it appears that it works against you.
War, naturally, is a separate issue, but in the breaking of treaties it is not.

This statement illustrates how you are trapped in your religious framework due to assuming your idea of God exists. You don't give yourself freedom beyond this belief. This is why you are trapped and why you are the guard and the prisoner.

You are rude and inpatient.

Quite the contrary, I'm being very patient and giving you opportunities to back up your repeated claims, even though you deflect and ignore the requests.

Why would you expect to find any cosmic truth in this manner?

I don't assume any cosmic truth, why do you? This is yet another claim which justifies nothing in your other claims.

You have already decided, and your arrogant position is
"materialism is the default belief .. prove it"
You only serve to deceive yourself.
It is not possible that God can show you anything like this, other than striking you down. I wouldn't push it, if I were you..
..but then, you are not me.

More of your drama. You are having a tantrum because you engage in debate without any intent to follow the rules of debate. The dilemma is yours. If you actually had any legitimate truth you would offer evidence and coherent explanations instead of drama.

I reply to your posts and specific questions..
I cannot and will not continue to respond to pointless rhetoric.

The rhetoric is yours. You keep repeating claims that go unjustified as being reasoned and thoughtful. If you can't defend your claims in debate then stop making the claims.

Yeah, yeah .. and I throw out a materialist ideology.
It doesn't "taste good" to me.
..and I've got pretty good taste buds, I would say.

Real food doesn't taste good to you, but imaginary food is delicious.

Materialism is factual. Religion is imaginary and illusory. We understand, you don't like reality, you prefer your illusions.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If God(s) want to strike me down for my lack of belief ... well ... I'm waiting. I've been waiting for 20 years now. When do you think it's going to happen??

I'm sure that you realise that Almighty God only does what He wills.
..and nobody knows what and when that will be on a person to person basis.

You can make all the grand claims that you want to, but it's pretty clear that they're not backed with any sort of useful evidence

Clear to you, maybe.
..but I see that we live in an era that is unprecedented.
Climate change caused by global industrialisation, which in turn is caused by the financial system, is very real.

The prophecies about end-times is unfolding as we speak.
Armageddon WILL happen .. and the time is not far off.

You may deny it as much as you like, It does not change a jot.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Whoa there, you "wouldn't expect them to be accurate?"
But you just said, ".because I see that the Torah, Psalms, NT and Qur'an knit together in a coherent fashion and cannot believe that it is all conspired fantasy."

That's right .. not to the letter, no.
..but overall, it is correct.

Eating pork is an abomination .. dealing in usury is exploiting your brother etc. etc.

 

[F1fan]

I'm sure that you realise that Almighty God only does what He wills.
..and nobody knows what and when that will be on a person to person basis.

None of this is relevant unless you assume a God exists the way you do. Why should anyonbe assume your idea of God exists? Show evidence.

The prophecies about end-times is unfolding as we speak.
Armageddon WILL happen .. and the time is not far off.

Just more of your unverifiable claims that you can't back up.

Just one more theist making one more claim of the end times. Yawn. Take your place in line.

List of dates predicted for apocalyptic events - Wikipedia.

You may deny it as much as you like, It does not change a jot.

Oh the irony.

That's right .. not to the letter, no.
..but overall, it is correct.

Eating pork is an abomination .. dealing in usury is exploiting your brother etc. etc

Do you believe these only apply to you and your religious tribe, or do you think they apply to all people? I had pork last night, and used a credit card this morning, according to you am I violating some sort of divine law? If so, why?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I'm sure that you realise that Almighty God only does what He wills.
..and nobody knows what and when that will be on a person to person basis.

Then this god doesn't "will" for me to believe in "him" or doesn't care if I believe in him.
Or, this god doesn't exist. This is the exact response I would expect from a god that doesn't exist.

Clear to you, maybe.

Clear to anyone following the thread. What useful evidence do you think you've provided?

..but I see that we live in an era that is unprecedented.
Climate change caused by global industrialisation, which in turn is caused by the financial system, is very real.

Yep, climate change is occurring.

The prophecies about end-times is unfolding as we speak.
Armageddon WILL happen .. and the time is not far off.

Do you have any idea how many times in history people have thought it's the "end times" and it wasn't? Countless.

And still ... nothing. Just empty promises and wishful thinking.

You may deny it as much as you like, It does not change a jot.

It doesn't make it true, either.

 

[SkepticThinker]

That's right .. not to the letter, no.
..but overall, it is correct.

Sounds contradictory to me.

Eating pork is an abomination .. dealing in usury is exploiting your brother etc. etc.

I eat pork often. I don't find it to be an abomination and nothing bad has happened to me yet. Should I keep waiting?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Only you are calling it a conspiracy. Rational minds understand the history and how cultures evolve over time..

No, no, no.
Stay on topic.

I say Muhammad, peace be with him, is a prophet of God.
You say that the Qur'an is an example of a culture "evolving over time"??

..and that is but one example..

You have no rebuttal to his explanation, only denial. This is the phenomenon he has explained:

Syncretism in religion

..not this again..

You: religions evolve and amalgamate .. prophets don't exist
Me: Yes, they do .. but prophets do exist.

Naturally, you prefer the "no god exists" hypothesis, because you adopt a material philosophy.

It cannot be proved one way or the other, and neither can independent historical evidence show any bias towards prophets existing or not.

This statement illustrates how you are trapped in your religious framework due to assuming your idea of God exists..

I am trapped in this life, as we all are.
Other than that, I use my powers of reasoning, as you presumably do.
..except that I cannot envisage a universe without an "author", whereas you obviously do.

You don't give yourself freedom beyond this belief..

I shall not, God willing.
I can understand the argument of my Lord.
My Lord has no needs whatsoever, He warns mankind for our own benefit .. individually and collectively.
Remembrance of God is a necessity .. if not, then we will remember other, and are in danger of being led astray.

This is why you are trapped and why you are the guard and the prisoner..

..but I have hope for the future .. patience and perseverance is not at all easy, however.

Materialism is factual..

No it isn't ..any old Tom Dick or Harry can claim that there is none other than the material world.
It does not represent the whole truth, just because it can be empirically proved.
It is merely a convenience, to claim that it is irrational to believe in non-material concept.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Just one more theist making one more claim of the end times. Yawn. Take your place in line.

List of dates predicted for apocalyptic events - Wikipedia.

Why do you quote people who claim they know dates of future events?
You know I don't believe any of that.
Nobody knows the date of armageddon .. we can only judge how close it is by sound religious knowledge.

There are many signs..
One big sign is the appearance of tall buildings in the Arabian peninsula.
It is connected to "oil", as is climate-change.
Catastrophe is upon us .. yet we still continue to consume more fossil fuels.
Mankind is weak .. they would rather kill each other, than change their ways.

I had pork last night, and used a credit card this morning..

I don't need to know that, yet you delight in telling me.

..according to you am I violating some sort of divine law? If so, why?

Yes, you are .. you disbelieve, and cannot see the consequences of your actions.
It is the financial system that is causing climate-change, and wealth inequality.

..it all began when Europe began its "enlightenment", and Protestant banking emerged in Amsterdam .. the Dutch Indies company .. followed by transfer to London when the Dutch invaded Southern England [William of Orange] .. followed by the British Empire and industrialisation.
There .. swallow that.

 

[Valjean]

..so they serve no purpose?

I didn't say they served no purpose. I say they're not reliable investigative or testing modalities.

Oh no .. not another one..
You really think that you can say something is "outright falsehood", because you cannot find an historical account, other than scripture .. about something that happened 1000's of years ago.
Really???

Egypt was a literate civilization that kept historical records. The fact that there are no records of major events, when there certainly would have been records, is evidence the events didn't occurr. It existed uninterrupted right through the period claimed for the exodus. A series of extraordinary plagues followed by 90% of the population marching off into the desert would certainly have made headlines all over the world, so to speak.

Archæologists have found no indication that large numbers of Israelite laborers lived in Egypt. No houses, artifacts, records, DNA -- nothing.

The hot, dry Sinai deser preserves things. Several million people living in the region for 40 years would have left a lot of evidence of their presence -- there's none.

How would three million or more people survive in the Sinai, without modern technology and transport systems?

 

[WonderingWorrier]

The quotation is not a clear, declarative or explanatory sentence. It' cryptic; it needs interpretation. Even granting poetic license, it's gobbledygook.
Positions? Metals? Fruits? Astronomic bodies? What's that all about? What's a reasonable person to make of it?

I understand what you are saying but I have to disagree because I know its not gobbledygook.
You will need to try to understand the quotation is a clear explanatory sentence as prophecies are clear explanatory sentences.

Your problem is the words cant be heard. But when the word position is known then the words can be heard and also confirmed.

Like Jesus saying the bread is my flesh, and the wine is my blood.

I do agree with what he is saying. As in my understanding my bread is also my flesh, and my wine is also my blood.

Because they are symbols that share the same position

Position1 - Position2 - Position3
Bread - Oil - Wine
Flesh - Bone - Blood

Can you understand the bread is my flesh, and the wine is my blood, and the oil is my bones?

"As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones". Psalm

Verifications? Positions? Please explain. Your literary analysis is as abstruse as the scripture you quote.

Having oil as my bones can be verified by showing the sword is also my bones.

"As with a sword in my bones, mine enemies reproach me; while they say daily unto me, Where is thy God?" Psalm


Position1 - Position2 - Position3
Bread - Oil - Wine
Flesh - Bone - Blood
Spear - Sword - Bow
Moon - Star - Sun

And the sword can be verified as my sword is also my star:

Observe this prophecy:

"The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear". Habakkuk

It is not poetic gobbledgook open to interpretation. It is a clear explanatory sentence.

It speaks of four symbols. Two symbols from each layer of three symbols.

Position1 - Position2 - Position3
Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow


Can you notice one symbol from each set of three was left out? The star and the sword.

Genesis says there was a sword placed in Eden. And Adam and Eve wore fig leaves in Eden.

So the stars appearing as figs is being confirmed because both are also swords. I hope you can understand the connections between seemingly unrelated words.

The stars are as figs:

Position1 - Position2 - Position3
Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow
Pomegranate - Fig - Apple




It is the mighty wind that does this. Just as the prophecy said the stars appear as figs because of the mighty wind.

The mighty wind is the easterly wind. The word mighty is an easterly word.
There are 277 sentences in the bible that contain the word mighty. And the sentences are talking in easterly symbols.

Here are some of the symbols I've talked about showing their shared position. East.

Position1 - Position2 - Position3
North - West - East
Bread - Oil - Wine
Moon - Star - Sun
Brass - Silver - Gold
Pomegranate - Fig - Apple
Spear - Sword - Bow
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Lion - Leopard - Wolf
Bear - Deer - Horse
Straw - Dust - Stubble



Here is an example of the word mighty. The mighty wine:

"Then the Lord awaked as one out of sleep, and like a mighty man that shouteth by reason of wine. "Psalm.

If you look at the symbol list you will see wine is an easterly word.

Words from a shared position are being woven together within their group. Makes it sound like nonsense but it shows the position has the meaning and it verifies the meaning. Like the prophecy of the wolf with the lamb, the lion eating straw with the Ox, and the Leopard with the kid goat (see my symbol list).

Yes, I would. Thanks. This is all very confusing.

Sorry I know it is confusing. It is difficult for me to try to talk about words that cant be heard. The list of symbols showing their shared position is my attempt at giving a visual reference to help be able to hear words.

I can use the whole bible to try to explain a single word of the bible.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Egypt was a literate civilization that kept historical records. The fact that there are no records of major events, when there certainly would have been records, is evidence the events didn't occurr. It existed uninterrupted right through the period claimed for the exodus..

What is correct to say, is that historians have found no evidence of Exodus (the Israelites leaving Egypt) or, more specifically, they have found no evidence of the Biblical Exodus. That means that historians did not find any evidence of the specific details of the Exodus recorded in the Bible, hence they consider it unlikely.

That is wholly different from “proving” that the Biblical Exodus wasn’t real and much more different from proving the Exodus recorded in the Quran wasn’t real.

I make the distinction between the Biblical and the Quranic narrative because many of the details recorded in the Bible are not present in the Quran. So, the lack of evidence for those details, would not really be evidence against the Quran.

Archæologists have found no indication that large numbers of Israelite laborers lived in Egypt. No houses, artifacts, records, DNA -- nothing..

Carry on .. keep digging.

Several million people living in the region for 40 years would have left a lot of evidence of their presence -- there's none..

Oh well that proves it then .. it's all a hoax.

As I say. no mention of number of people or dates in the Qur'an.