Atheists Pressure MI School District to Stop Treating the Birth of Jesus as Fact

[ecco]

Yes. Exactly. You think you know everything. Like an atheist. Like I used to. I was wrong.

Well, there's another difference between me and you, I never thought I knew everything.

Furthermore, if you follow these threads at all, you would see that atheists are the first to admit that they, as a group, don't know everything.

Furthermore, if you follow these threads at all, you would see that theists, especially fundies, are the ones who insist they know all manner of things like how the world began and where man came from.

 

[Earthling]

Well, there's another difference between me and you, I never thought I knew everything.

Furthermore, if you follow these threads at all, you would see that atheists are the first to admit that they, as a group, don't know everything.

Furthermore, if you follow these threads at all, you would see that theists, especially fundies, are the ones who insist they know all manner of things like how the world began and where man came from.

Uh huh. Yeah. That would never occur to me.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Ill now concede that neither the James Ossuary nor Mara-Bar Serapion's letter is highly conclusive extra-biblical evidence for the historicity of Jesus Christ, but the Romano-Jewish historian Flavius Josephus wrote about Jesus Christ as being a historical person. So then, there's evidence for a historical Jesus Christ.

The extant manuscripts of the writings of the first-century Romano-Jewish historian Flavius Josephus include references to Jesus and the origins of Christianity.

References:

Feldman & Hata 1987, pp. 54–57
Flavius Josephus & Maier 1995, pp. 284–285.


Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, written around 93–94 AD, includes two references to the biblical Jesus Christ in Books 18 and 20 and a reference to John the Baptist in Book 18.

References:

Feldman & Hata 1987, pp. 54–57.
Flavius Josephus & Maier 1995, p. 12.

Scholarly opinion varies on the total or partial authenticity of the reference in Book 18, Chapter 3, 3 of the Antiquities, a passage that states that Jesus the Messiah was a wise teacher who was crucified by Pilate, usually called the Testimonium Flavianum

Scholarly opinion varies on the total or partial authenticity of the reference in Book 18, Chapter 3, 3 of the Antiquities, a passage that states that Jesus the Messiah was a wise teacher who was crucified by Pilate, usually called the Testimonium Flavianum.

References:

Feldman & Hata 1987, pp. 54–57.
Maier 2007, pp. 336–337
Schreckenberg & Schubert 1992a, pp. 38–41.

The Flavus writings [about christianity] have long since been discredited as fraud-- edited in long after the death of the original author.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

There is more evidence that Jesus is historical than Socrates.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

There is more evidence that Jesus is historical than Socrates.

That's not true. For a start, we have at least three accounts from Socrates' alleged contemporaries, whereas we do not currently have a single contemporary account of the life of Jesus.

That's not to say Jesus definitely didn't exist or that there isn't a historical basis for him, but it is not true to say we have more evidence of Jesus than Socrates.

 

[wellwisher]

Christianity was a threat to both the traditional Jewish religion of the 1st century and then the Roman Empire. The crucifixion was encouraged by the Pharisees and enforced by a governor of Rome. Christianity was called the religion of the slaves and became a threat to the Roman status quo. It also preached that the old dispensation of the Jews had been for filled. It spoke against power and was a threat.

The first documented case of imperially supervised persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire begins with Nero (37–68). In 64 AD, a great fire broke out in Rome, destroying portions of the city and economically devastating the Roman population.

Much of what is known about the great fire of Rome comes from the aristocrat and historian Tacitus, who claimed that Nero watched Rome burn while merrily playing his fiddle. ... Nero himself blamed the fire on an obscure new Jewish religious sect called the Christians, whom he indiscriminately and mercilessly crucified.

One way to delegitimize someone or a group is to destroy any record that gives them credence. If you purge the record it never happened. There were many people who benefitted by purging the record of Jesus. The new record of Jesus is not published until later.

The earliest such texts are the letters (or Epistles) written between about 50 and 62 AD by St Paul to various early Christian communities.

St. Paul was placed on trial under Nero. He was in prison two years and is eventually executed. Paul had been one of the worse critics of Jesus, but changed his attitude after a vision. He became one of the strongest advocates even giving an presentation to the Roman Senate; Romans.

As a modern example of purging the record to alter history, Hillary Clintons erased 30,000 E-mail records making it hard to determine if she was engaged in illegal pay for play behavior. Since the record was destroyed, there is no hard proof that anything ever happened, All you have left is speculation and word of mouth by people who will be bullied and discredited if they talk. The Democrats immediately set up a scam and charged Trump with Russian collusion, since there was rumor the Russians may have had Hillary's destroyed e-mails. The Russians needed to be discredited less the text be restored. This is how you destroy evidence and change the record of the past, so there is no proof it ever happened.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

There is more evidence that Jesus is historical than Socrates.

Actually? That is not even a little true. Socrates actually wrote stuff. Apparently, "Jesus" was illiterate or something...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Christianity was a threat to both the traditional Jewish religion of the 1st century and then the Roman Empire. The crucifixion was encouraged by the Pharisees and enforced by a governor of Rome. Christianity was called the religion of the slaves and became a threat to the Roman status quo. It also preached that the old dispensation of the Jews had been for filled. It spoke against power and was a threat.



One way to delegitimize someone or a group is to destroy any record that gives them credence. If you purge the record it never happened. There were many people who benefitted by purging the record of Jesus. The new record of Jesus is not published until later.



St. Paul was placed on trial under Nero. He was in prison two years and is eventually executed. Paul had been one of the worse critics of Jesus, but changed his attitude after a vision. He became one of the strongest advocates even giving an presentation to the Roman Senate; Romans.

As a modern example of purging the record to alter history, Hillary Clintons erased 30,000 E-mail records making it hard to determine if she was engaged in illegal pay for play behavior. Since the record was destroyed, there is no hard proof that anything ever happened, All you have left is speculation and word of mouth by people who will be bullied and discredited if they talk. The Democrats immediately set up a scam and charged Trump with Russian collusion, since there was rumor the Russians may have had Hillary's destroyed e-mails. The Russians needed to be discredited less the text be restored. This is how you destroy evidence and change the record of the past, so there is no proof it ever happened.

Most amusing. Not even based on sound speculation (especially the Clinton part).

It's so cute when CONservitives lie.

 

[ecco]

As a modern example of purging the record to alter history, Hillary Clintons erased 30,000 E-mail records making it hard to determine if she was engaged in illegal pay for play behavior. Since the record was destroyed, there is no hard proof that anything ever happened, All you have left is speculation and word of mouth by people who will be bullied and discredited if they talk. The Democrats immediately set up a scam and charged Trump with Russian collusion, since there was rumor the Russians may have had Hillary's destroyed e-mails. The Russians needed to be discredited less the text be restored. This is how you destroy evidence and change the record of the past, so there is no proof it ever happened.

It's not surprising that in a thread about the historic lies of Christians and Christianity that someone would provide an excellent current example.

 

[ecco]

Actually? That is not even a little true. Socrates actually wrote stuff. Apparently, "Jesus" was illiterate or something...

The Best Books on Socrates | Five Books Expert Recommendations

For, as I said, he wrote nothing. All we have of Socrates are the writings of other people who variously used him as a character or a model:
​

Socrates on the Forgetfulness that Comes with Writing  |  Chapter 1: Literacies on a Human Scale  |  Γραμματισμοί  |  Neamathisi

Socrates did not write down any of his thoughts, however his dialogues were recorded by his student and protégé, the philosopher Plato.
​

We should take all things "recorded" as hearsay at best. Much of it is probably just plain old fabrication.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The Best Books on Socrates | Five Books Expert Recommendations

For, as I said, he wrote nothing. All we have of Socrates are the writings of other people who variously used him as a character or a model:
​

Socrates on the Forgetfulness that Comes with Writing | Chapter 1: Literacies on a Human Scale | Γραμματισμοί | Neamathisi

Socrates did not write down any of his thoughts, however his dialogues were recorded by his student and protégé, the philosopher Plato.
​

We should take all things "recorded" as hearsay at best. Much of it is probably just plain old fabrication.

Another thing to consider is the magnitude of the claim. The claim that there was a philosopher name Socrates is not that extreme. The claim that someone was the son of God and came back from the dead and did scads of other miracles is quite the claim. To be consistent a Christian needs to answer the question "What evidence would convince you that another man was the "savior". I can assure you that if the evidence was on the same order as that offered by the Bible they would not accept him.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That's not true. For a start, we have at least three accounts from Socrates' alleged contemporaries, whereas we do not currently have a single contemporary account of the life of Jesus.

That's not to say Jesus definitely didn't exist or that there isn't a historical basis for him, but it is not true to say we have more evidence of Jesus than Socrates.

Quite honestly, we really don't know whether Socrates existed or whether he was a creation of Plato. That's the gosh darn truth.

Jesus, on the other hand, has good solid testimony of eye witness testimony of quite a few others who knew him. To start with, we have the three gospel writers, Matthew, John, and Mark writing for Peter. Then we have the non-Pauline epistles Peter, James, and John. We have records of the other disciples going out and becoming missionaries in his name. That's far, far, far more evidence than for Socrates.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Actually? That is not even a little true. Socrates actually wrote stuff. Apparently, "Jesus" was illiterate or something...

No, Socrates didn't write stuff. The only things we know about Socrates are what we hear second hand about him from Plato. The hard, cold truth is that we don't know whether Socrates was a real person or was simply made up by Plato.

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

Hostility toward the Christian faith is nothing new. The FFRF group is headed by an ex-Fundy Evangelical. Now, his hatred for the faith he once loved knows no bounds. Though he's not so quick to assault Islam as he is the faith of Christ.

One day I expect someone with quite a lot of money will sue the leader of FFRF personally and his tax exempt religious organization. Civil rights violations among other charges should do it.


Nothing Fails Like a Freedom From Religion Foundation Lawsuit

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Hostility toward the Christian faith is nothing new. The FFRF group is headed by an ex-Fundy Evangelical. Now, his hatred for the faith he once loved knows no bounds. Though he's not so quick to assault Islam as he is the faith of Christ.

One day I expect someone with quite a lot of money will sue the leader of FFRF personally and his tax exempt religious organization. Civil rights violations among other charges should do it.


Nothing Fails Like a Freedom From Religion Foundation Lawsuit

ACLJ? That hack site? Nothing they say-- and I cannot stress this enough-- nothing they say can be taken as true, accurate or even real.

They are a super-right wing hate group, and correctly classified as such. Bigotry, white supremacy and worse, are among their most notable traits.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

No, Socrates didn't write stuff. The only things we know about Socrates are what we hear second hand about him from Plato. The hard, cold truth is that we don't know whether Socrates was a real person or was simply made up by Plato.

That's not what I have read, but never mind-- we have literature from when Socrates was alive.

This is in 100% contrast to anything written about the fictional character "jesus".

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

ACLJ? That hack site? Nothing they say-- and I cannot stress this enough-- nothing they say can be taken as true, accurate or even real.

They are a super-right wing hate group, and correctly classified as such. Bigotry, white supremacy and worse, are among their most notable traits.

It gets old, I mean incredibly old, when certain members slander the president, or in this case ACLJ, and have not one iota of proof for their hate speech.
Who classifies them as a hate group? Oh, the anti-Christian SPLC?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Quite honestly, we really don't know whether Socrates existed or whether he was a creation of Plato. That's the gosh darn truth.

Again, we have three, separate eye-witness accounts of people who claim to have met him.

Jesus, on the other hand, has good solid testimony of eye witness testimony of quite a few others who knew him. To start with, we have the three gospel writers, Matthew, John, and Mark writing for Peter. Then we have the non-Pauline epistles Peter, James, and John. We have records of the other disciples going out and becoming missionaries in his name. That's far, far, far more evidence than for Socrates.

Actually, none of those are eye-witness accounts. The absolute earliest any of the new testament dates back to is several decades after Jesus' supposed death. Not a single actual eye-witness account exists.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

It gets old, I mean incredibly old, when certain members slander the president, or in this case ACLJ, and have not one iota of proof for their hate speech..

You don't like the truth? Well, that's just too bad.

ACLJ is well known as a hate group. Google reveals all.

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

You don't like the truth? Well, that's just too bad.

ACLJ is well known as a hate group. Google reveals all.

Get a lot of use from that tongue do you? As an aside, do you know the originators of "Google? I do. Let us just say your tongue (in cheek) out of mouth emote has not a clue!

Lastly, maybe you missed the request. Let me rephrase, as I knew SPLC when they were on the right side, PROVE it!