paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Atheists outperform theists at nearly all reasoning skills
So, what? Does it prove that Atheism is reasonable, please.
Regards
So, what? Does it prove that Atheism is reasonable, please.
Regards
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Atheists outperform theists at nearly all reasoning skills
- Thread starter charlie sc
- Start date
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Can the Atheism people excommunicate if a fool, a criminal, an ignorant or a killer person becomes Atheist/Agnostic/Skeptic, please?
I don't mean that every Atheist/Agnostic/Skeptic is like that, generally they are reasonable persons. Right, please?
Regards
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Logically, God is not only loving, but exhibits justice. Logically, justice exists. Logically, Jesus died to satisfy God's justice, so why would I willingly choose to be in pits of torture not made for me, but for Satan's group?!
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
Those two traits are mutually exclusive. You cannot be both loving and just-- love requires mercy, whereas justice is blind to mercy.
More to the point? Your god is the opposite of loving-- infinite torture is the opposite of love-- infinite torture is pure hate.
Terrorism, really.
And? Infinite torture isn't just, either.
So. your "logic" is false: your god isn't loving-- it is hateful. Your god isn't just-- it is sadistic.
Neither of your claimed traits matches the description/behavior of your god.
ooops! you kinda messed up, there.
Citation needed-- nothing in your bible points to Justice-- quite the opposite, in fact.
What sort of "justice" uses a SCAPEGOAT? Serious question-- that makes no sense!
Worse: your god is so brutal, that it cannot be satisfied unless-- something is murdered in the most brutal way possible?
BARBARIC!
The fact that you imagine a god who even thinks about Infinite Torture? And you think ... there is nothing wrong with that?
Says a great deal about you-- and none of it is ... good.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
You wrote: "You cannot be both loving and just-- love requires mercy, whereas justice is blind to mercy."
I cannot be loving and just or you cannot be loving and just or God cannot be loving and just, based on your comment? I am loving and just and exhibit both in my daily behavior. I showed justice in two criminal trials as a juror while doing my utmost to show clemency, mercy and a fair trial, in the name of love. I also exhibited these traits daily while raising children!
I hope you do too! God made us in His image!
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
Correct-- not at the same time, for the same actions. You can either deliver Justice.
Or you can grant mercy.
You cannot do both at the same time.
Not for the same action. The two are mutually exclusive.
I seriously doubt this claim. Personal anecdotes do not evidence make.
And considering you consider that a torturing terrorist god is "love"?
I absolutely do not believe your claim of "in the name of love"!
NO! I AM NOTHING LIKE YOUR GOD: For starters? I would do everything in my power to stop the abuse of a child! I would never permit an adult to do such things.
And JUST. LIKE. THAT?
I am more moral than your god is!
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
1) You CAN deliver justice and love at one and the same time--this is the point of Christ's death.
2) I am moral than you and less moral than God, so I don't know how you can be more moral than God.
charlie sc
Well-Known Member
Define reasonable? btw, you don't have to say please and regards to me
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
Absolutely false. It is NOT JUST to kill someone for someone ELSE'S MISTAKES-- that is the OPPOSITE of Just.
The fact you believe this happened? Only shows how deeply damaged christianity makes people.
I am FAR MORE moral than your god.
For starters? I can (and have) forgiven without requiring a brutal murder. Your god? Absolutely cannot. Your god is just a Death Merchant: Trading DEATH for dubious "forgiveness".
But wait! There's more! If I could prevent a CRIME? If it was within my power to do so? I WOULD-- most especially if the victim(s) were children.
Your god's #1 trait is one of DOING NOTHING-- thus, your god-- who is (according to the label) ALL POWERFUL-- REFUSES TO STOP VICTIMIZING OF CHILDREN.
That makes me about a billion times MORE moral than your god could ever wish to be. (assuming roughly a billion child-victims a year... which is just a WAG)
Of course-- what is a billion times zero? Zero. Seeing as your god is 100% myth? My morality is hardly impressive-- it's a low bar to leap.
(proof your god is myth: If it were REAL? It would never need YOU to argue on it's behalf...! )
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Well, we do agree on something:
"It is NOT JUST to kill someone for someone ELSE'S MISTAKES-- that is the OPPOSITE of Just."
Jesus became sin for you and for me IMHO. He died for HIS mistakes, His sin, guilt, shame and imperfection, His sin.
What's bothering you is different--you like paying for your own mistakes, and want me to pay for my own also.
That is, you DO care about JUSTICE, and maybe about LOVE, but have no stomach for GRACE or MERCY.
Then again, you don't even have tolerance for people with religious views!
ecco
Veteran Member
Ah, yes. The ultimate sacrifice - God gave his only begotten son to die for our sins? But it really isn't the same as it would be for us.
Your God sent 1/2 of himself in the form of the Holy Ghost to earth to convince a poor young virgin to allow herself to be impregnated. For thirty some years God allowed 1/3 of himself to live on earth. The 1/3 who lived on earth didn't do much for most of the time. Then he started preaching, got some people upset and ended up in heaven along with the other 2/3s of himself. Big sacrifice!
It's less of a sacrifice than sending a kid to summer camp for a couple of weeks and finding out he stubbed his toe on the last day before coming home.
And, parents don't rape anyone to get their kids into camp.
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
Wow. You just re-wrote 100% of christian theology.... Jesus was sinless, according to the label.
God demanded a sinless martyr-- god in this instance is just a death merchant.
But as for me? I've not sinned in any way deserving of infinite torture-- yet, your god will do that simply because I refuse to stroke his massively bloated ego?
Thief
Rogue Theologian
how about.....God as a Force
that can react to how you feel
then make your approach
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
Novel. Certainly less immoral that Traditional gods I've heard about.
But if that were true? God is a wimp...
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
If there are several contradictory claims about something, all but one claim must be logically false.
Now this is sometimes used by some humans to point out that most religious humans must be wrong, because all but one version of supernatural beliefs are logically false.
So what about atheists?
Well here is how that works and you can test it yourself. Find a group of humans, who self-identify as atheists and you will notice the following, namely they hold contradictory views about the following subjects not in any particular order:
Atheists can't agree on strong versus weak atheism and the relationship to agnosticism and knowledge versus belief. So it seems that some atheist must hold logically false views and if we look overall on atheists, it seems to follow that at least some are wrong just as most religious humans are wrong.
The problem in practice I have is this:
Lawrence Kohlberg | American psychologist
https://www.simplypsychology.org/kohlberg.html
So it seems that better reasoning skills in atheists don't necessarily lead to better reasoning about ethics.
Now if you can find any study about ethical reasoning in atheists versus non-atheists I would like to read it.
Now this is sometimes used by some humans to point out that most religious humans must be wrong, because all but one version of supernatural beliefs are logically false.
So what about atheists?
Well here is how that works and you can test it yourself. Find a group of humans, who self-identify as atheists and you will notice the following, namely they hold contradictory views about the following subjects not in any particular order:
- Metaphysics and whether metaphysics is knowledge or a belief.
- What knowledge is and how science works and what science can do.
- What morality is and whether is a form of knowledge or not.
- How reason, logic and rationality work and whether you need feelings/emotions to decide at least something or if you can do without feelings/emotions.
- Whether atheism unites all atheists in an overall common world-view or if atheists are only humans with a disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
- What is the correct political system.
- What philosophy is and whether science is a form of philosophy or not.
- The status of realism and anti-realism in morality.
- Whether science can do normative claims.
- Whether science can tell anything about supernatural claims.
- Whether strong or weak atheism is correct and if it is known that there are no gods.
Atheists can't agree on strong versus weak atheism and the relationship to agnosticism and knowledge versus belief. So it seems that some atheist must hold logically false views and if we look overall on atheists, it seems to follow that at least some are wrong just as most religious humans are wrong.
The problem in practice I have is this:
Lawrence Kohlberg | American psychologist
https://www.simplypsychology.org/kohlberg.html
When I engage with atheists that it seems that at least some are incapable of abstract thinking when it comes to morality and you can test that yourself. Simply ask enough atheists about morality/ethics/politics and you will notice that they hold contradictory views.
So it seems that better reasoning skills in atheists don't necessarily lead to better reasoning about ethics.
Now if you can find any study about ethical reasoning in atheists versus non-atheists I would like to read it.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
no really......what if God responds to you?.....in your frame of mind and heartNovel. Certainly less immoral that Traditional gods I've heard about.
But if that were true? God is a wimp...
Who cares. There's more important things in life than "intelligence" (whatever one means by that). Tell me about things that actually impact the daily living and quality of life of person and I'll pay more attention. Reason, rationality and logic all have their place in life but so do their opposites as humans are not primarily reasonable, rational or logical animals, including those arrogant elitists who boast about those traits in their in-group (who are just being tribalist apes as we are wont to be). A person may not be a physicist but they might know how to build a house, fish, farm, hunt, etc. I think we all know which has more practical use in life. One can have a plethora of Ph.Ds and still be an utter useless fool, just as someone could drop out of school in primary school but be content, hard-working and wise.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
I don't understand how you 1) claimed to have adhered to scripture in the past and 2) argue now against scripture when you deny very basic scriptural concepts, like that found in 2 Cor 5:21, "God made him who had no sin to BE sin for us, so that in him we might BECOME the righteousness of God."
The scripture says a SINFUL Jesus, bearing and BEING your sin and mine, died to satiate God's justice.
The other thing I don't understand, is where you write: "I've not sinned in any way deserving of infinite torture," while denying the logical facts:
1. Are you, like me, morally imperfect, because you disobey your inner voice sometimes?
2. Since a utopia is a perfect place, if I hurt your feelings or you hurt my feelings, it stops being utopia. Do you know the solution, so we imperfect people can get to Heaven?
3. The Bible explains that Jesus Christ, being perfect, switched places with us on the cross. He died a horrible death by torture to take our sin, guilt and shame, our imperfection. To BECOME our imperfection! He then rose from the dead, to prove we can trust Him for eternal life.
Hell was "made for Satan and his angels," so it would be your choice to go there IMHO if you are unwilling to comprehend how sinners must not just be forgiven, but transformed, to moral perfection, to live in a perfect utopia. You are turning a logical decision, "be perfect, accept a (costly!) paid gift, do something simple to live forever," into an emotional decision, "I don't want a logically needed, free gift, because I don't bow before others."
ecco
Veteran Member
The above pertains equally to Hindus, Christians, Muslims, Jews, and theists. Therefore, to try to apply it to just atheists is nonsensical.
The above would tend to support your self-analysis.
OK.
Some atheists say they find no evidence for a god.
Some atheists say there is no god.
Do they logically agree or disagree on the premise that The Christian God and the Hindu Gods and the Greek gods are man's creations? Yes, they logically agree. Can both be right? Yes, both can be right.
Christians and Muslims will argue that their version of God is the only correct version of God. Do they logically agree with each other? No. Can both be right? No, both cannot be right.
You have a problem with a link?
If you have problems with concepts, then tell us, in your own words, what concepts you have problems with.
One thing you can look at is the ethics as espoused by the Christian Bible and compare them to American laws which have, at least recently, discarded reliance on The Bible. As just one example, slavery was once accepted with Biblical support. Now slavery is prohibited.
Miscegeny and laws against homosexuals would be a couple more examples.
ecco
Veteran Member
God, you have told us, has existed forever.
Jesus didn't exist until about 2000 years ago.
Half God had His other Half God (The Holy Ghost) impregnate a young virgin.
Out of all of eternity, Jesus lived on earth only about 30 years - not even a blink in the eye of an eternal God.
During that time he was tortured for a relative millisecond.
It's far more painful for a human to cut one hair off his head.