Atheists Only: Would this be proof?

[s2a]

Facts? Listen, how about we make a deal, you and I? I won't try to tell you how the God I believe in works, and you don't try to tell me about how the God you don't believe in doesn't work. The less you and I try to communicate, the better off we'll both be.

Ahem.

First of all, your reply constitutes evasion of a pointed inquiry that deserves earnest answer.

Secondly, you are actively petitioning to shut down a distinct discussion (not a debate) that you invited others to participate within.

The fact(s) of the matter (at hand) remains:
1) Conscientious and methodically rigid medical studies confirm the notion that "intercessional" prayer" effects no substantively favorable outcomes. Fact. Not opinion.

2) Prayer may very well indeed make both the supplicant and the intended "recipient" perhaps "feel better" (about themselves, or their current plight), but there's no "evidence" (beyond the anecdotal, or fallacies of post hoc, excluded middle, cherry-picking, or confirmation bias (recalling what "worked", while ignoring what "failed") that serves to support ANY claim that "prayer works". NONE.

"Prayer" remains the most egregious example of the failure of fallacious rationales...for it "fails" more consistently than it "succeeds" (in deriving whatever is "wished" for).

NOTHING fails more consistently (or predictably) than prayer.

NOTHING.

It may very well be that the fundamental foundations of fallacious rationales established upon a confirmation bias find their roots in religious prayer and secret wishes for divinely-wrought interventions.

When "it works"...adherents praise God for his actions and mercies.

When it fails...adherents point to the impenetrable mysteries and "plans" of God that mankind is never meant to fully comprehend or appreciate.

Maybe God is but another mediocre civil servant...who may or may not bother to expend any effort to address a specified petition or grievance. After all, who can fire a civil servant...or question their ineffectiveness/incompetence while "on the job"?

 

[Katzpur]

First of all, your reply constitutes evasion of a pointed inquiry that deserves earnest answer.

Certain people don't "deserve" anything from me.

Secondly, you are actively petitioning to shut down a distinct discussion (not a debate) that you invited others to participate within.

Sorry, s2a, but I disagree. My OP was not intended to be an invitation to discuss whether intercessory prayer works or not. What I was trying to do is determine what effect it would have on atheists IF the situation described in my hypothetical example were actually to take place. I was curious as to how they would explain what, in my mind, could only be described as miraculous. Evidently, most people who have responded to my question understood that's what I was after, because they actually addressed my inquiry instead of trying to go off on some tangent about whether God answers prayers or not.

 

[s2a]

Certain people don't "deserve" anything from me.

OK. Your discretion...

Sorry, s2a, but I disagree. My OP was not intended to be an invitation to discuss whether intercessory prayer works or not. What I was trying to do is determine what effect it would have on atheists IF the situation described in my hypothetical example were actually to take place. I was curious as to how they would explain what, in my mind, could only be described as miraculous. Evidently, most people who have responded to my question understood that's what I was after, because they actually addressed my inquiry instead of trying to go off on some tangent about whether God answers prayers or not.

Just for the record...I DID answer your OP, within this very thread, early on...here.

Understand that "some people" (maybe even "most people") retain some semblance of accountable explanation for their earnest opinions...and may even be inspired (enough) to explain/account for their own views/perspectives. Such "accountings" may offer more than you wanted to know...or subsequently contend with on a level of actual debate...but at lest appreciate the fact that respondents aren't ignoring your premised inquiries...or lending them some knee-jerk short shrift/dismissals.

 

[Katzpur]

Just for the record...I DID answer your OP, within this very thread, early on...here.

I know. I remember your reply. Thank you.

Understand that "some people" (maybe even "most people") retain some semblance of accountable explanation for their earnest opinions...and may even be inspired (enough) to explain/account for their own views/perspectives. Such "accountings" may offer more than you wanted to know...or subsequently contend with on a level of actual debate...but at lest appreciate the fact that respondents aren't ignoring your premised inquiries...or lending them some knee-jerk short shrift/dismissals.

I do understand that, but the rules of the forum prohibit me from even offering an alternative point of view on the atheism DIR forum.

 

[Autodidact]

I don't put people on ignore. Even the most obnoxious, hateful ones.

Me neither. I guess I'm just too curious.

Educate you? Give me a break. There are some miracles even I don't believe are likely to happen. The only factual issue here is that intercessory prayer has a real, detectable effect on me. That's all the evidence I need, and you are not in a position to tell me I'm wrong about that. Now if you wouldn't mind, let's get back to the topic of the OP -- which, incidentally, was not why God didn't stop Katrina dead in its tracks. If you want to debate the existence of God, do it on a debate forum and don't look for me to participate.

No, on the contrary, you're absolutely right. Many studies have confirmed that meditative prayer (not so much intercessory prayer, I don't think) to any deity has a beneficial effect on the person praying, as does pure meditation. The effects are not merely psychological, but physical. Prayer is good for your health! (and so is meditation.) I was quite surprised and interested to learn this, and I would think it would be an important area for future study. Among other things, it's free, and has no negative side effects. In that sense, prayer works.

What bothers me is that some religionists are not content with this important truth, but instead spread the falsehood that prayer is effective in changing external reality, which actual experiments, as well as the thought experiments that I asked you to undertake, demonstrate. Lying in general irritates me.

As you for you and me and this thread, as I said, I don't think Heads I win/Tails you lose argumentation is either fair or logical, and if you want to ask and discuss whether, if intercessory prayer did work, that would affects atheists' thinking [it would have affected mine a lot, when I was first researching to try to figure out whether God existed, as I think I said in an earlier post], then it's pertinent and fair to discuss whether, since it doesn't, that affects theists' thinking. It's that old do-unto-others thing that so many Christians seem to have a hard time grasping. Basically, if you don't think it's relevant that it doesn't work, then why should you expect atheists to find it relevant if it did? Which it doesn't.

And I'm pretty sure that the underlying point of your post was how the efficacy of prayer contributes to evidence for the existence of God, so I think that subject is relevant as well.

 

[Shell-Shocked]

Do the people in group 1 know they are being prayed for? Because that would affect the outcome greatly.

But even so, this wouldn't change my mind. Just **** me off as to how god did not show love and compassion to all his children, just the ones who did as he told them. If god is as loving and forgiving as most religions say he is (which he's not, since earlier religion said he was vengeful and hateful of you), wouldn't he heal all of them or none?

 

[kai]

Calling all atheists! :shout Okay, first off, I am not proselytizing, so don't bother getting out the boxing gloves. I couldn't care less that you don't believe in God (for the sake of argument, let's say the Abrahamic God). So, let's get that straight for starters. It's just that I've heard so many atheists say, "Give me proof and I'll believe in God." I don't even bother trying, because I know I can't prove that God exists. Whenever a theist does attempt to come up with proof, you guys refuse to accept it. I can't say that I blame you since I don't find their proof particularly compelling myself. Today, my husband and I were having a conversation that made me think about starting this thread. Basically, it had to do with prayer and with God's will.

I started wondering about a hypothetical, although impossible, situation that, in my opinion, could -- if it were feasible -- be considered proof of God's existence. Let's say we had a group of 500,000 people, all of whom were terminally ill and none of whom were in any way religious. They could be either agnostic or atheist, I suppose, but they definitely would not be the kind of people who would ever pray, asking that God heal them, nor would they solicit the prayers of others on their behalf. Let's assume that they were all close to death and resigned to the fact that the end was near. Now, let's say that these people were split into two groups of 250,000 each. The prayers of all Christians, Muslims and Jews throughout the world were offered up to God, pleading with Him to heal the dying individuals within the first of these two groups. No one, however would pray for anyone in the second group. Within a relatively short period of time (let's say two weeks), every single one of the 250,000 individuals for whom prayers were offered were "miraculously" healed. Without a single exception, all of them were as healthy as they'd been at any time in their lives. On the other hand, during this same period of time, every last one of the 250,000 who had not had anyone pray for them (and had not prayed for themselves) died, as had been expected.

Would these results, if they were exactly as I described them, possibly cause you to re-think you lack of belief in God? Would they, in other words, be sufficient to make you to believe in God? If not, to what would you attribute the results of the experiment? (Please don't start by telling me that such an experiment would be impossible to perform. I may be a theist, but I'm honestly not quite that stupid! Just pretend that we actually could do this experiment and come up with the results I stated and take it from there.)

Since this is not a debate forum, I'm just looking for answers. I may or may not come back with further thoughts of my own.

all you would achieve would be an argument on who healed them Allah, Yahweh or Jesus,

 

[Katzpur]

Do the people in group 1 know they are being prayed for? Because that would affect the outcome greatly.

No. I already said that neither group was aware of the prayers being offered.

If god is as loving and forgiving as most religions say he is (which he's not, since earlier religion said he was vengeful and hateful of you), wouldn't he heal all of them or none?

You're missing the point.

 

[Katzpur]

all you would achieve would be an argument on who healed them Allah, Yahweh or Jesus,

LOL! Yeah, you're probably right.

 

[rojse]

Do the people in group 1 know they are being prayed for? Because that would affect the outcome greatly.

The experiment is designed so that if prayer did have an effect by convincing God in some manner, the patient does not need to be told. If they do need to be told, there is more than the supposed effects of God's intervention at work.

 

[rojse]

all you would achieve would be an argument on who healed them Allah, Yahweh or Jesus,

I would have to contend that it would be the Flying Spaghetti Monster touching them with His Noodly Appendage.

 

[doppelganger]

You can't rule out intervention by Tom Cruise, either.

YouTube - Help me Tom Cruise

 

[rojse]

You can't rule out intervention by Tom Cruise, either.

YouTube - Help me Tom Cruise

As a practicing Pastafarian, I am offended by the idea that you would try and equate Tom Cruise with the FSM.

 

[Delilah Roo]

I still could not know that it was god who helped them. I do think that posative thought is important and can help people. Not god though. -Delilah

 

[daphnestory]

I suppose that would be compelling evidence if an experiment with those results occured. I would probably then believe in a god, but out of the major Abrahamic religions that say to pray to god, I still wouldn't know which one to regard as true. I might believe in the Abrahamic god, but probably wouldn't buy too far into any of the specific religious practices. Meaning, I'd believe, and probably accept some of the practices that all 3 religions agree on (which there are actualy only a few they all agree on, if you think about it) unless I something was done in the experiment that would point to the teachings of only 1 specific Abrahamic religion.

 

[LuisDantas]

Would these results, if they were exactly as I described them, possibly cause you to re-think you lack of belief in God? Would they, in other words, be sufficient to make you to believe in God? If not, to what would you attribute the results of the experiment?

In those exact terms, it looks like evidence for the existence of magic, or at least supernatural healing. Not quite the same as existence of God IMHO.

 

[EverChanging]

It would challenge my worldview, but "God did it" is not an explanation. There could always be some other physical/natural explanation we don't know of. And even if it was supernatural, it may not be a god's powers, but some other type of force.

I certainly wouldn't be inclined to worship a god that lets all the people in one group die just because they aren't being prayed for.

 

[muichimotsu]

The perception of agency in events that are supposedly miraculous is different from perceiving paranormal forces in events that are supposedly miraculous. Distinction seems primarily a matter of deities/God/gods or magic/pantheism/etc

 

[Tathagata]

No, it wouldn't makes believe because I would be very suspicious about the way the experiment was conducted. Also, we've already performed similar experiments and they failed.

 

[Revoltingest]

Calling all atheists! :shout Okay, first off, I am not proselytizing, so don't bother getting out the boxing gloves. I couldn't care less that you don't believe in God (for the sake of argument, let's say the Abrahamic God). So, let's get that straight for starters. It's just that I've heard so many atheists say, "Give me proof and I'll believe in God." I don't even bother trying, because I know I can't prove that God exists. Whenever a theist does attempt to come up with proof, you guys refuse to accept it.

Actually, I'll venture that no atheist has ever done so.
Since such proof hasn't been offered, it's never been refused.

Let's say we had a group...................................as had been expected.
Would these results, if they were exactly as I described them, possibly cause you to re-think you lack of belief in God? Would they, in other words, be sufficient to make you to believe in God? If not, to what would you attribute the results of the experiment? (Please don't start by telling me that such an experiment would be impossible to perform. I may be a theist, but I'm honestly not quite that stupid! Just pretend that we actually could do this experiment and come up with the results I stated and take it from there.)
Since this is not a debate forum, I'm just looking for answers. I may or may not come back with further thoughts of my own.

Perhaps it's because I've consumed so much sci fi, that I'd suspect either my own
sanity or a technological power pretending godly powers. I'd be very skeptical.