Atheists Only: Would this be proof?

[Katzpur]

Hi,
I've only read the OP so this answer may already have been proffered. If so I apologise.

If this scenario really happened, any true atheist would have to reassess their position.

But, lets look at the problem from another angle. Lets say you had a child who was dying of a terminal illness and an atheist came up to you and said, "I can cure your child but you must give up your irrational attachment to God, Jesus etc. etc."

Would you give it all up to save the life of your child?

No, I wouldn't. There are worse things than death. If my turning against God could save my child, I would lose that child sooner or later anyway, and in the process, I'd lose a whole lot more in the process.

 

[Katzpur]

That would certainly be evidence to believe in God, but then my belief would be a warped, maltheistic type of view from that - after all, he would have condemned two hundred and fifty thousand people to death to prove a point to me, when he could have saved them.

If your proof was not fixated on people about to die, and a select group dying, I might take your more cheerful view of Him.

Well, I'll admit, the experiment wouldn't exactly make him out to be a particularly loving God, but that's kind of beside the point, IMO. The experiment, after all, was intended to provide evidence for God's existence, not for his benevolence.

 

[Katzpur]

There are an infinite number of explanations to account for such results.

Maybe you could give me a half dozen or so examples. I'm not coming up with any offhand.

Do you think that an all-powerful deity who claims the creation of all reality is the most likely cause?

Uh, yeah... But then I'm a theist. That's what theists believe.

 

[Katzpur]

I see you answered my question already. I apologize for not reading the remainder of the thread before posing my question.

Well, the most obvious is the amazing effect of positive mental energy (figuratively speaking, though I'm open to a literal interpretation) in regards to human health. The body becomes what the mind believes. Studies support this very strongly.

This isn't even a possibility. The people who were healed in my example weren't aware of the prayers being offered on their behalf, and they certainly wouldn't have believed that prayer could benefit them in any way. This logic is not only flawed, it is actually evidence in support of my position. If the body becomes what the mind believes, both groups of people would have died since they had already accepted the inevitability of death and did not believe there was anything that could be done for them.

Or tampering with the results....

250,000 who were prayed for lived. 250,000 who were not prayed for died? How do you tamper with these results?

Or maybe it was a complete coincidence.

Yeah, maybe. For someone who apparently puts a lot of stock in scientific studies, you're awfully gullible if you really believe this would be a coincidence.

There are variables I can't even think of.

Compelling ones, I'm sure. Out of an "infinite" number of explanations, I had hoped for something a bit more impressive.

 

[rojse]

Nice to see you on the forums again, Katzpur.

 

[Katzpur]

How could any god really prove himself to exist to anyone? By showing himself and making a huge demonstration.

And you wouldn't dismiss this appearance as a magicians trick? Apparently you'd need to see God to believe He exists. The results of the experiment I described seemed to me to be a pretty "huge denomstration." Some questions for you:

If God were to show Himself, what form would He have to take to convince you that He was God? If He appeared as a man, would you be open to the possibility that He was God (provided, of course, that He pulled of his huge demonstration successfully)? How about if He appeared as a bright light? Or as a fire? Or as a monstrous creature with three heads? Suppose He had no form? Would He have to have a form that you could see, or could the "huge demonstration" alone do the trick? If the huge demonstration alone would do the trick, what on earth kind of huge demonstration could top healing 250,000 people who were on the brink of death?

 

[Katzpur]

In fact, some research has been done in this area, and it has found the opposite. Intercessory prayer has shown to be ineffective. Does this cause you to rethink your belief in God?

Actually, I don't believe the results of the research in this area are particularly compelling either way. I can't really think of anything that would cause me to rethink my belief in God, but then I've already really tried to do that and failed.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm thinking of shaking the world with his triumphant voice and moving mountains as a sign of his godly power.

Sounds suspiciously like an earthquake to me.

If god wants his presence to be known, he needs to get off his butt and start making magic happen.

Silly turkey, lots of us know of God's presence, and we didn't need a circus sideshow to do it.

 

[rojse]

Well, I'll admit, the experiment wouldn't exactly make him out to be a particularly loving God, but that's kind of beside the point, IMO. The experiment, after all, was intended to provide evidence for God's existence, not for his benevolence.

What changes to the experiment would you suggest so that God appears to be more benevolent?

 

[Katzpur]

An omnipotent, omniscient God would know exactly what is required to convince each of us of His own existence and would be completely able to make it happen.

The fact that this has definitely not occurred for the vast majority of people indicates to me one of a few possibilities:

- God exists, but does not want to be universally known
- God does not exist
- God is either not omnipotent or not omniscient (or both)

Some religions can cope with some combinations of these possibilities; the mainstream versions of the Abrahamic religions cannot, IMO.

How about a fourth possibility: God's working on a different timetable than you are.

 

[Katzpur]

What changes to the experiment would you suggest so that God appears to be more benevolent?

I'm not sure that one experiment could prove both his power and his benevolence at the same time. I suppose it's possible, but I don't have a good answer for you off the top of my head. I'll have to give this one some thought.

 

[lunamoth]

I'm not sure that one experiment could prove both his power and his benevolence at the same time. I suppose it's possible, but I don't have a good answer for you off the top of my head. I'll have to give this one some thought.

What if 100% of patients in both sides of the study were cured?

 

[Katzpur]

What if 100% of patients in both sides of the study were cured?

Then my experiment would have proven nothing.

(That aside, I win, Ms Moth. )

 

[lunamoth]

Then my experiment would have proven nothing.

Well, if half a million terminally ill people were cured in the course of this experiment, it's one that I'd want to repeat several times more.

(That aside, I win, Ms Moth. )

Not quite Garfield.

 

[gnomon]

Rather than asserting a hypothetical that remains in the realm of possibility, no matter how statistically improbable, I think a hypothetical such as an asteroid (very big one) just about to enter the Earth's atmosphere and spell our doom suddenly disappearing....then I would seriously question my lack of belief in some sort of divine entity that cares about humanity.

I'm not knocking Katzpur's hypothetical. I think I just require that extra oomph! of an event violating known physical laws, i.e. truly miraculous.

 

[lunamoth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lunamoth
What if 100% of patients in both sides of the study were cured?

Then my experiment would have proven nothing.

(That aside, I win, Ms Moth. )

Actually, having thought about it a bit more...if 100% of all patients in the study were cured I think it would prove your point about God, and it would also not make God seem petty in the process.

It would be like the story of the prodigal son...unconditional love shown to all.

 

[Katzpur]

Actually, having thought about it a bit more...if 100% of all patients in the study were cured I think it would prove your point about God, and it would also not make God seem petty in the process.

It would be like the story of the prodigal son...unconditional love shown to all.

But if only half of the people were prayed for and all were healed, what basis would we have for attributing the results to God?

 

[lunamoth]

But if only half of the people were prayed for and all were healed, what basis would we have for attributing the results to God?

It would not show that intercessory prayer was the critical factor in the healing. How would you explain the 500,000 people being cured?

 

[Katzpur]

Rather than asserting a hypothetical that remains in the realm of possibility, no matter how statistically improbable, I think a hypothetical such as an asteroid (very big one) just about to enter the Earth's atmosphere and spell our doom suddenly disappearing....then I would seriously question my lack of belief in some sort of divine entity that cares about humanity.

See, to me, that would be far less compelling than my example. If the asteroid just suddenly disappeared, I'm pretty sure no one would even think to consider God's hand in it. That's something that people would certainly attribute to some natural phenomenon. To make any kind of experiment valid, you'd have to have some kind of a control group like I described.

 

[Katzpur]

It would not show that intercessory prayer was the critical factor in the healing. How would you explain the 500,000 people being cured?

I don't know how I'd explain it. It would certainly seem miraculous to me, but it just seems to me that it wouldn't be a valid experiment if it was set up the way I described and then all of the people were healed. I would understand the reluctance of the skeptics to believe that God's will was involved more in this case than in the case where God apparently responded to the prayers of believers. You, as one who believes in God, would probably agree with me that God already probably heals 500,000 people a day worldwide. And so far, that hasn't convinced anybody.