Atheists: If God existed would God……

[Trailblazer]

I'm not gonna lie, I've been drinking....BUT...
If God communicated to everyone, then that would prove his existence to everyone...no?

No problem with the drinking, obviously it has not interfered with your thinking abilities.
Yes, if God communicated to everyone, then that would prove His existence to everyone.

And I see you are new so welcome to the forum.

 

[Trailblazer]

All knowing and all wise? Was this the same bible i read. What i read was a god who created everything end then didn't like his work so drowned it. An all knowing and all wise would have known enough an been wise enough not to make such a basic mistake in the first place. And then he repeats the mistake several times... All knowing and all wise? If this god exists then I think not.

According to the bible he did, he committed genocide to murder all those who wouldn't listen.

This is not the action of a logical being

As a Baha'i, I do not believe in the anthropomorphic God of the Old Testament. Rather I believe that men wrote 'stories' about what God allegedly did. These stories were not literally true but rather they have symbolic meanings and convey important spiritual truths.

Speaking of the great flood, I recently got this article that might be of interest, written by a Baha'i who was raised as a Christian:

Noah’s Ark and the Value of Spiritual Symbolism

 

[Trailblazer]

I tend to believe the existence of things that communicate with me...

So do I, but I don't expect all of them to communicate directly to me.

 

[Heyo]

The one true God who created the universe.

Oh, that one. It wouldn't communicate because it left after creating the universe to create other universes.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then we must conclude -- on the evidence before us (a world full of disparate, warring religions over the millenia) that "His goals" are to sow discord by ensuring that the message cannot be uniformly understood.

Because, as you said, God is All-Knowing and All-Wise, and yet this is precisely how it turned out, and He must have known that it would.

God knew it would turn out that way because God is all-knowing, but God did not cause it to turn out that way, humans did.

Just because it turned out that way that does not man that was God's goal.

God did not sow discord by ensuring that the message could not be uniformly understood.
Rather, humans misunderstood the messages and later when God sent Baha'u'llah to explain what they had misunderstood most people rejected Baha'u'llah so they remain in the dark. Most people want to hold on to their misunderstandings because that is what they were taught to believe and that is what they want to believe, but you cannot blame God for that since humans have free will to choose their beliefs.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why doesn’t God directly communicate to each of us so we can believe easily?

I believe it has to do with our spiritual development which is mainly why we are born into this earthly plane. I believe that just as we needed to develop our limbs and bodies in the womb to prepare us for this life, here we need to acquire virtues which will assist us to exist in the next life.

The other reason is because ordinary humans could never understand God if God communicated to them directly because no ordinary human has that capacity.

“Immeasurably exalted is He above the strivings of human mind to grasp His Essence, or of human tongue to describe His mystery. No tie of direct intercourse can ever bind Him to the things He hath created, nor can the most abstruse and most remote allusions of His creatures do justice to His being. Through His world-pervading Will He hath brought into being all created things. He is and hath ever been veiled in the ancient eternity of His own exalted and indivisible Essence, and will everlastingly continue to remain concealed in His inaccessible majesty and glory. All that is in heaven and all that is in the earth have come to exist at His bidding, and by His Will all have stepped out of utter nothingness into the realm of being. How can, therefore, the creature which the Word of God hath fashioned comprehend the nature of Him Who is the Ancient of Days?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 318

Since no tie of direct intercourse can ever bind God to humans, God sends Messengers in every age in order to communicate His Will to humans. These Messengers have a twofold nature, both divine and human, and as such they can understand God and humans, and act as mediators between God and humans. I believe we can know God through His Messengers but we can never know God directly.

“And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself.....The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.””
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

God knew it would turn out that way because God is all-knowing, but God did not cause it to turn out that way, humans did.

Just because it turned out that way that does not man that was God's goal.

God did not sow discord by ensuring that the message could not be uniformly understood.
Rather, humans misunderstood the messages and later when God sent Baha'u'llah to explain what they had misunderstood most people rejected Baha'u'llah so they remain in the dark. Most people want to hold on to their misunderstandings because that is what they were taught to believe and that is what they want to believe, but you cannot blame God for that since humans have free will to choose their beliefs.

You might want to look a little more deeply into your logic -- which for the record, isn't logical and doesn't hold.

Start, for example with being all-knowing, then creating something and already knowing how that will turn out, and then saying the creation was the problem.

For goodness sakes, thinking is not that hard!

 

[Trailblazer]

You are changing the assumptions. You were talking about a creator God, not an all-knowing, all-wise God or even the God described in the Bible (I disagree that the God of the Bible is portrayed as all-knowing and all-wise).

And there is no reason a creator God would even be aware of us, let alone care about us in any way.

How could a creator God who created everything, including humans, NOT be aware of humans?
Whether that God would care about us or not is another matter.

OK, and by the above reasoning, that means that if God exists, it is either unaware of us, doesn't care about us, or can't figure out how to communicate with us. All of which are consistent with a creator God.

Why would any of that be the case? I believe that God is aware of us and cares about us and God has figured out how to communicate with us but some people have rejected that communication.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hi,

I don't understand the question.
Could , should, would ?

If he could, should he ?
or if should would he ?
or would he if he should ?

I am asking what God would do if God existed.
I am asking if God would God communicate directly to everyone or prove that He exists to everyone IF GOD EXISTED.

I am not asking if God could communicate directly to everyone or prove that He exists to everyone.

I am not asking if God should communicate directly to everyone or prove that He exists to everyone.

God could do anything He wanted to do, but just because God could do certain things that does not mean that God would or should do certain things.

Who is to say what God should do, besides God?

 

[Trailblazer]

What about radio waves?

How would anyone know it was God?

 

[Heyo]

How could a creator God who created everything, including humans, NOT be aware of humans?

Because it didn't create humans, it created the universe. Everything else is the result of the physics of the Big Bang.

I believe that God is aware of us and cares about us and God has figured out how to communicate with us but some people have rejected that communication.

You are adding more and more assumptions. How many single, independent things do you believe about god?

 

[Trailblazer]

What would you do with your children? Tell just one (maybe the first-born) what you are thinking, what you want, what you expect of all of them, whether (and how much) you approve of each of them -- and then hope that first-born passes the message along to the rest? If you did that, I assure you that only one of your children would ever respect or really love you.

I am sorry but that is the fallacy of false equivalence because God is not a human, and as such it is completely illogical to expect God to behave like a human.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".

This fallacy is committed when one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result.[2] False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence doesn't bear scrutiny because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors.
False equivalence - Wikipedia

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I am sorry but that is the fallacy of false equivalence because God is not a human, and as such it is completely illogical to expect God to behave like a human.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".

This fallacy is committed when one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result.[2] False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence doesn't bear scrutiny because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors.
False equivalence - Wikipedia

I see -- so you now declare that you know what God "is not." Would you care to take the next tiny step and tell us what God "is?"

See, this is the step that none of the God Salesmen will ever do. Why not? Because they cannot.

 

[Polymath257]

How could a creator God who created everything, including humans, NOT be aware of humans?
Whether that God would care about us or not is another matter.

We are such an insignificant aspect of the universe that it may well be that we are an unintended side-effect that simply hasn't been noticed yet.

Just because a thing creates another thing doesn't imply it knows everything about it.

Why would any of that be the case? I believe that God is aware of us and cares about us and God has figured out how to communicate with us but some people have rejected that communication.

In that case, God wasn't bright enough to figure out a form of communication that worked,

 

[Trailblazer]

So, yes. I agree, According to the scriptures, God is not right now proving anything to people who would even demand such proof. The time will come for that... and what a day that will be!
He provides the evidence for everyone, and reveals himself more clearly, to those who respond to the evidence in a wise way.

And why do you think that God is not proving anything to people who would even demand such proof? I know why, given I have been explaining this to that atheist on other forums for seven years.
It has fallen on deaf ears but it has sure given me lots of ideas for new threads on this forum.

The reason God does not prove He exists is because God wants our faith. If God proved He exists then we would no longer need faith.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

We must first believe that it is possible for God to exist, and that requires faith since no man has ever seen God.

God will reward those who earnestly seek Him with the evidence they need to believe, but God will not force anyone to accept the evidence. That is a choice.

 

[Polymath257]

I am sorry but that is the fallacy of false equivalence because God is not a human, and as such it is completely illogical to expect God to behave like a human.

All that means is, in as much as humans are concerned, God is amoral. If God is simply not concerned with the well-being of humans, there would be no necessity to communicate.

If you want to apply the word 'good' to God, then that goodness must be meaningful in human terms. Otherwise it is irrelevant to human concerns and the word 'good' is misused.

 

[Trailblazer]

A non material thing that interacts with material people on a material world? ? How does that even work?

Simple, God communicates through the Holy Spirit to Messengers who have a twofold nature...
Since these Messengers are both divine and human they can understand communication from God and relay the information that they receive back to humans in a way that humans can understand it.
So in short, these Messengers act as mediators between God and man.

 

[Polymath257]

I am asking what God would do if God existed.
I am asking if God would God communicate directly to everyone or prove that He exists to everyone IF GOD EXISTED.

If a God existed that cared about humans, had the power to communicate, and where the belief in that God was relevant for human well-being, then God *would* communicate.

The fact that no such communication has happened shows either no God exists, or there is a God that doesn't have the power to communicate, or that the belief in God is irrelevant for human well-being.

I am not asking if God could communicate directly to everyone or prove that He exists to everyone.

I am not asking if God should communicate directly to everyone or prove that He exists to everyone.

God could do anything He wanted to do, but just because God could do certain things that does not mean that God would or should do certain things.

Who is to say what God should do, besides God?

Anyone who understands the concept of caring and goodness.

 

[Polymath257]

Simple, God communicates through the Holy Spirit to Messengers who have a twofold nature...
Since these Messengers are both divine and human they can understand communication from God and relay the information that they receive back to humans in a way that humans can understand it.
So in short, these Messengers act as mediators between God and man.

But clearly God chose poorly because most people don't believe those communicators.

 

[Trailblazer]

If we are to assume that an omnipresent, all powerful, good, gracious and loving deity exist, then yes it would stand to reason it's existence would be universally known.

I can agree that would be the ideal situation because it makes logical sense.

It would most probably communicate on a regular basis with a lot of humanity's member and might even be quite intimate with many of its members, if only for maintaining friendship and good will.

I see no reason why a deity would do that. Why do you think a deity would do that?
Please bear in mind that the deity is not a human being.