Atheists: If God existed would God……

[nPeace]

... I believe that God provided evidence of His existence but obviously God has not proven that He exists to everyone, as otherwise there would be no atheists.

Good point.
That is exactly what I see the scriptures have stated. Evidence that is clear - Romans 1:19, 20 19 because what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them. 20 For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made. . .

Proof that wll eventually be made known to those not accepting that evidence - Jeremiah 16:21 “So I will make them know, At this time I will make them know my power and my might, And they will have to know that my name is Jehovah.”
Ezekiel 6:10 They will have to know that I am Jehovah and that my threats to bring this calamity on them were not empty.. . .
Ezekiel 25:17 I will execute on them great acts of vengeance with furious punishments, and they will have to know that I am Jehovah when I bring my vengeance on them.. . .

So, yes. I agree, According to the scriptures, God is not right now proving anything to people who would even demand such proof. The time will come for that... and what a day that will be!
He provides the evidence for everyone, and reveals himself more clearly, to those who respond to the evidence in a wise way.

Good post.

 

[Trailblazer]

You sure you know which one that is?

Yes, I am absolutely sure.

 

[nPeace]

Same way we know the truth the sun and the rain brings. You see it, experience it, and there's a complete concensus that says yes, it's there.

There's no debate or speculation involved.

Everyone knows right away.

So Dark Energy and Dark Matter does not exist then? They are just imaginings?

 

[Trailblazer]

Same way we know the truth the sun and the rain brings. You see it, experience it, and there's a complete concensus that says yes, it's there.

There's no debate or speculation involved.

Everyone knows right away.

That won't work for an analogy because the sun and rain is a material thing that we can all see and hear and experience.
By contrast, God is not a material thing that we can all see and hear and experience.

Only people who have spiritual eyes and ears will know that God exists and I believe that is the way that God wants it to be, as otherwise God would do something differently to garner the belief of the nonbelievers.

Apparently God is fine with debate and speculation, at least for now. I believe that in the future there will no longer be any debate because everyone will know that God exists.

 

[Twilight Hue]

So Dark Energy and Dark Matter does not exist then? They are just imaginings?

Actually it dosent mean either way. Dark matter is a placeholder term for something that hasn't been determined yet.

 

[Twilight Hue]

That won't work for an analogy because the sun and rain is a material thing that we can all see and hear and experience.
By contrast, God is not a material thing that we can all see and hear and experience.

Only people who have spiritual eyes and ears will know that God exists and I believe that is the way that God wants it to be, as otherwise God would do something differently to garner the belief of the nonbelievers.

Apparently God is fine with debate and speculation, at least for now. I believe that in the future there will no longer be any debate because everyone will know that God exists.

A non material thing that interacts with material people on a material world? ? How does that even work?

 

[epronovost]

Certain attributes are unique to God. Only God is Eternal, Holy, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Infallible, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Sovereign, and Immaterial, so nobody except God can have those attributes.

Some of God's other attributes that humans share are Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, Patient.

If we are to assume that an omnipresent, all powerful, good, gracious and loving deity exist, then yes it would stand to reason it's existence would be universally known. It would most probably communicate on a regular basis with a lot of humanity's member and might even be quite intimate with many of its members, if only for maintaining friendship and good will.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Yes, I am absolutely sure.

And I am absolutely sure that you are dead wrong -- and on just as much evidence as you have.

Got any idea how to resolve that?

I mean, if we disagreed on whether spider silk or steel were stronger, we could probably find a way to settle the matter.

 

[nPeace]

I'm afraid that you would have to provide evidence that the words "recorded and preserved in the Bible" are actually God's, and not those of some human(s), priest or otherwise, who thought they knew what God would think.

That has already been done, but that doesn't stop skepticism.
What we would more realistically have to do, is get rid of all the skeptics . Rather, that would be God's job. Not ours.
So that's a dead-end exercise right now.

You would also have to prove that the words "recorded and preserved" in every other world scripture were not the words of God, but only of some human(s), priest or otherwise.

How would you suggest we prove it?

The fact that you believe the former is not evidence, I'm afraid, of anything except your belief.

I don't think he believes that his belief is evidence. He didn't indicate that, from what I read in his post.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

(Evangelicalhumanist said "I'm afraid that you would have to provide evidence that the words "recorded and preserved in the Bible" are actually God's, and not those of some human(s), priest or otherwise, who thought they knew what God would think."

That has already been done, but that doesn't stop skepticism.

Where, tell us all, where is that "evidence?" (For the record, "my Mommy told me so" does not count as evidence.)

 

[nPeace]

Actually it dosent mean either way. Dark matter is a placeholder term for something that hasn't been determined yet.

So you see the point then?
God does not have to be seen physically.
The wind sways leaves. God sways hearts... among other things.

 

[nPeace]

A non material thing that interacts with material people on a material world? ? How does that even work?

What material is magnetism?

 

[nPeace]

Where, tell us all, where is that "evidence?" (For the record, "my Mommy told me so" does not count as evidence.)

See what I mean.

 

[Trailblazer]

How could anyone answer these questions? Before you could even begin, you would have to know what this "God's" motivations are:

No, I do not think we would have to know that.
This is an exercise in logic
If God exists we can know certain things about how God does not operate.

Is there any evidence that God has communicated directly to everyone?
Is there is any evidence that God has proven that He exists to everyone?

No, there is no evidence that shows that either one of those has ever occurred and from that we can deduce that IF GOD EXISTS God would not do either one of those things.

Then we can take that one step further and ask why God has never done either one of these things.

1. Does this god want everyone to know about it?
2. Does this god care what anyone thinks?
3. Does this god wish to impart important information to everyone?

If the answers to 1 and 2 are "no," then there's no telling what, if anything, such a god might or might not do. But if the answer to 3 is "yes," then we must consider this:

If that god is omniscient, then that god knows for an absolute certainty what we can demonstrate to be true -- that human communication is fraught and error-prone. The very existence of multiple systems of religious belief is hard proof of that. Even using the identical scriptural references, humans take different meanings from it, and wind up in mutually contradictory sects.

So in my view, if the answer to 3 is "yes," then this god absolutely would make itself known to everybody, and communicate its important message to each individual in a way that each individual would clearly understand.

The problem with your view is that you are making certain assumptions. You are assuming that God could communicate directly to everyone in such a way that everyone could understand what God communicated.

There are also other problems with your view. If God communicated directly to everyone what God communicated to a Messenger (which in the case of Baha'u'llah was the equivalent of 15,000 tablets that He wrote), how would everyone be able to understand what was communicated and write it all down? Mind you, all humans have very different capacities.

Please note, that does not take away free will in the slightest. You can know perfectly well and without the slightest doubt that your spouse wants you to do the cooking tonight, and still decline to do it. So, you could know with perfect clarity what god wants of you -- and still do as you wish.

My argument is not that direct communication fro God to humans would take away human free will. My argument is that ordinary humans could never understand direct communication from God because God did not create humans with that capacity. The rest of my argument is that it is completely unnecessary for God to speak directly to everyone (even if people could understand that communication) since God can communicate to one Messenger who can disseminate all the information to everyone who is interested in that information.

I believe that God does wish to impart important information to everyone, but God is the one who knows best how to impart it because God is omniscient.

 

[F1fan]

Atheists: If God existed would God do #1 or #2, as noted below?

These are two separate questions.

1. If God existed would God communicate directly to everyone?
2. If God existed would God prove that He exists to everyone?

I am not asking if God could communicate directly to everyone or prove that He exists to everyone.
I am not asking if God should communicate directly to everyone or prove that He exists to everyone.

I am asking if God would God communicate directly to everyone or prove that He exists to everyone IF GOD EXISTED.

If you answer yes, please explain why you answered yes.
If you answer no, please explain why you answered no.

Thanks, Trailblazer

If a person assumes the basic Abrahamic God exists the question is why did it stop talking to people? If it exists it's clear that being quiet has caused a lot of division and doubt, and acting on behalf of the absent God in deadly ways. A God SHOULD say something. That is hasn't only suggests it is incompetent, is a sadist, or doesn't exist.

 

[Trailblazer]

People have different levels of learning and there are a lot of different languages and dialects.

So do you think that God should communicate directly to everyone in order to accommodate for those differences?
Why wouldn't there be another way for God to accommodate for those difference?

 

[Trailblazer]

The problem is everyone claims their creator God is the one true God and the rest are conceptions. Who should I believe has it right?

That is a very good question. The answer is that you should never believe what other people claim about God, you should only believe what you have independently researched and determined to be true.

If I had to choose one from the list I've researched it would Baiame the creator God (for want of a better word) of the Worimi people.

Why would you choose this God? What would your choice be based upon?

 

[Trailblazer]

So think it depends on which scriptures you get the God from

You raise some excellent points about what God would do according to scriptures but I was after a more generic answer since this was directed at atheists ho do not believe in scriptures.

This is an exercise in logic.
So, if God exists we can know certain things about how God operates, or should I say how God does not operate.

Is there any evidence that God has communicated directly to everyone?
Is there is any evidence that God has proven that He exists to everyone?

No, there is no evidence that shows that either one of those has ever occurred.

All we have to do is ask people if God has communicated to them directly in order to know if this is the case.
If people say that God has not communicated to them then we can logically deduce that if God exists God would not communicate directly to everyone...

Since atheists exist we can logically deduce that God has not proven that He exists to everyone.
That means that if God existed God would not prove that He exists to everyone.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

See what I mean.

See what I mean?

 

[Trailblazer]

You couldn’t. But you almost certainly have some.

You could not only speculate, you could know the answers to #1 and #2, as I just said to @Nimos in my post above. #78 Trailblazer, 2 minutes ago