Atheists: If God existed would God……

[ppp]

I believe that God reveals Himself through His Messengers and has done so from the beginning of human history.

God has sent a new Messenger for this age, but not everyone knows about Him, and many who know about Him have rejected Him.

If people reject God's Messenger that is not God's fault.

If there were a god who has a messenger that he wants me to believe then it is absolutely that god's fault that I don't find that messenger to be credible. If there's a God that doesn't want me to believe, or doesn't care that I believe then quit bellyaching about people rejecting the unbelievable. That's the appropriate response to the unbelievable.

 

[Trailblazer]

Which God are we talking about here?

The one true God, which is the only God that exists.

 

[Scolopendra]

The one true God, which is the only God that exists.

You should know different people believe different Gods to be the True ones. So maybe you should clarify.

 

[Trailblazer]

If there were a god who has a messenger that he wants me to believe then it is absolutely that god's fault that I don't find that messenger to be credible.

God might want you to believe but God does not need anyone's belief since God has no needs.

No, it is not God's fault since God does not make your choices for you.
You have free will to make your own choices.

It is not God's responsibility to see to it that you find the Messenger credible. God wants you to decide on your own what to believe. God has no interest in convincing anyone of anything.

 

[Trailblazer]

You should know different people believe different Gods to be the True ones. So maybe you should clarify.

Different people have 'different conceptions of God', but that does not mean that there is actually more than one God, one for every religion. I believe there is only one God who is responsible for sending all the Messengers, one in every age. This is called progressive revelation:

Progressive revelation (Baháʼí) - Wikipedia

This graphic illustrates some of the Messengers that God has sent throughout history, although there have been more.

 

[Scolopendra]

Different people have 'different conceptions of God', but that does not mean that there is actually more than one God, one for every religion. I believe there is only one God who is responsible for sending all the Messengers, one in every age. This is called progressive revelation:

Progressive revelation (Baháʼí) - Wikipedia

This graphic illustrates some of the Messengers that God has sent throughout history, although there have been more.

View attachment 64704

Only 8 messengers yet humans conceived more than 10'000 different religions. What happened to the rest?

Also why would this God send conflicting messengers each with its own distorted version? How is the message of say Buddha or Christ the same as that of Mohammed or Krishna?

 

[Trailblazer]

Only 8 messengers yet humans conceived more than 10'000 different religions. What happened to the rest?

I said: This graphic illustrates some of the Messengers that God has sent throughout history, although there have been more.

The Three Kinds of Prophets​

Question: How many kinds of divine Prophets are there?

Answer: There are three kinds of divine Prophets. One kind are the universal Manifestations, which are even as the sun. Through Their advent the world of existence is renewed, a new cycle is inaugurated, a new religion is revealed, souls are quickened to a new life, and East and West are flooded with light. These Souls are the universal Manifestations of God and have been sent forth to the entire world and the generality of mankind.

Another kind of Prophets are followers and promulgators, not leaders and law-givers, but they are nonetheless the recipients of the hidden inspirations of God. Yet another kind are Prophets Whose prophethood has been limited to a particular locality. But the universal Manifestations are all-encompassing: They are like the root, and all others are as the branches; they are like the sun, and all others are as the moon and the stars.

The Three Kinds of Prophets

Also why would this God send conflicting messengers each with its own distorted version? How is the message of say Buddha or Christ the same as that of Mohammed or Krishna?

The messages if each Messenger of God are not the same because time does not stand still. Mankind and the world he lives in changes over time, so the needs of mankind are different in every age, and that is why the messages were different. In the future God will send another Messenger with what mankind needs in that age, and tat process will continue as long as mankind lives on earth.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

Nothing that any Messengers revealed is in conflict with what the other Messengers revealed. As noted above, the messages are different because a different message is required in every age, but there is no conflict. The reason the religions appear to conflict is because the older religions have been corrupted by man over the course of time.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172

 

[ppp]

God might want you to believe but God does not need anyone's belief since God has no needs.

Not relevant to what I just said.

No, it is not God's fault since God does not make your choices for you.
You have free will to make your own choices.

As my beliefs are not a matter of choice, this again is irrelevant.

It is not God's responsibility to see to it that you find the Messenger credible. God wants you to decide on your own what to believe. God has no interest in convincing anyone of anything.

If your God existed then everything would be his responsibility. Everything. Good. Bad. Both. Neither. Everything.

 

[Scolopendra]

I said: This graphic illustrates some of the Messengers that God has sent throughout history, although there have been more.

The Three Kinds of Prophets​

Question: How many kinds of divine Prophets are there?

Answer: There are three kinds of divine Prophets. One kind are the universal Manifestations, which are even as the sun. Through Their advent the world of existence is renewed, a new cycle is inaugurated, a new religion is revealed, souls are quickened to a new life, and East and West are flooded with light. These Souls are the universal Manifestations of God and have been sent forth to the entire world and the generality of mankind.

Another kind of Prophets are followers and promulgators, not leaders and law-givers, but they are nonetheless the recipients of the hidden inspirations of God. Yet another kind are Prophets Whose prophethood has been limited to a particular locality. But the universal Manifestations are all-encompassing: They are like the root, and all others are as the branches; they are like the sun, and all others are as the moon and the stars.

The Three Kinds of Prophets

The messages if each Messenger of God are not the same because time does not stand still. Mankind and the world he lives in changes over time, so the needs of mankind are different in every age, and that is why the messages were different. In the future God will send another Messenger with what mankind needs in that age, and tat process will continue as long as mankind lives on earth.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

Nothing that any Messengers revealed is in conflict with what the other Messengers revealed. As noted above, the messages are different because a different message is required in every age, but there is no conflict. The reason the religions appear to conflict is because the older religions have been corrupted by man over the course of time.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172

I said: This graphic illustrates some of the Messengers that God has sent throughout history, although there have been more.

The Three Kinds of Prophets​

Question: How many kinds of divine Prophets are there?

Answer: There are three kinds of divine Prophets. One kind are the universal Manifestations, which are even as the sun. Through Their advent the world of existence is renewed, a new cycle is inaugurated, a new religion is revealed, souls are quickened to a new life, and East and West are flooded with light. These Souls are the universal Manifestations of God and have been sent forth to the entire world and the generality of mankind.

Another kind of Prophets are followers and promulgators, not leaders and law-givers, but they are nonetheless the recipients of the hidden inspirations of God. Yet another kind are Prophets Whose prophethood has been limited to a particular locality. But the universal Manifestations are all-encompassing: They are like the root, and all others are as the branches; they are like the sun, and all others are as the moon and the stars.

The Three Kinds of Prophets

The messages if each Messenger of God are not the same because time does not stand still. Mankind and the world he lives in changes over time, so the needs of mankind are different in every age, and that is why the messages were different. In the future God will send another Messenger with what mankind needs in that age, and tat process will continue as long as mankind lives on earth.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

Nothing that any Messengers revealed is in conflict with what the other Messengers revealed. As noted above, the messages are different because a different message is required in every age, but there is no conflict. The reason the religions appear to conflict is because the older religions have been corrupted by man over the course of time.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172

So all religions ever conceived are revelations by the same deity? This must be a joker God. Reveals himself as Huitzilopochtli to the aztecs and demands daily human sacrifice and than goes all non violent with its Jesus of Nazareth phase.

 

[CG Didymus]

If there were a god who has a messenger that he wants me to believe then it is absolutely that god's fault that I don't find that messenger to be credible. If there's a God that doesn't want me to believe, or doesn't care that I believe then quit bellyaching about people rejecting the unbelievable. That's the appropriate response to the unbelievable.

The only things we know about these messengers is what is written about them... The Scriptures of the religion that they are associated with. If we went through some of these "messengers" and read what was said about them and what they taught, how many would we find believable? Krishna? Abraham? Or how about Moses? If we weren't from one of the tribes of Israil, why would we believe any of those stories? The ten plaques? The parting of the sea. Moses' cane turned into a snake? All those laws and some of them carried the death penalty by stoning. What reasons would we have to believe this Moses actually spoke to God?

Then what about Jesus? He was born from a virgin? He walked on water? He raised two people from the dead? Then he, himself, was dead and buried and came back to life then floated off into the clouds?

Baha'is don't even believe these stories. Yet... they believe in God and all these messengers? Yes, they do, because they change the stories. God didn't necessarily do of the things that the Bible says he did. Baha'is don't necessarily believe the things that the NT says that Jesus did. So, why do they believe God, Jesus and the rest of these messengers are true? Because they need the religion, God, and the messengers to build their concept of "progressive" revelation.

If it wasn't for that, I don't see why Baha'is would want anything to do with most all of these other religions. All it does is cause them grief in trying to explain away all the differences between all the other religions. Which, to me, kind of shows, that they really don't believe in any of those other religions. I ask them that all the time... Which religion, other than the Baha'i Faith, do Baha'is believe teaches and practices the truth from God? They can't say that any of them do. They believe all of them have got something wrong with their beliefs and practices.

 

[CG Didymus]

So all religions ever conceived are revelations by the same deity? This must be a joker God. Reveals himself as Huitzilopochtli to the aztecs and demands daily human sacrifice and than goes all non violent with its Jesus of Nazareth phase.

I've never heard a Baha'i ever support that the Aztec, or Egyptian, or Greek or several other ancient religions was ever true. Usually, what they say is, "Every major religions is true" or "Every revealed (by a messenger/manifestation/prophet) is true. Then, even with those true ones, they say that the followers messed them all up and lost or changed the supposed "original" teachings, the teachings that didn't contradict the other religions and were obviously from the one true God. Except, those "original" teachings vanished?, because what we have left certainly does contradict the other religions and some speak of multiple Gods, or a God and an evil lessor god. or no God, or God/men. Kind of like each culture was making all these things up, rather than a God up in the sky telling them what to believe.

But then what do we do with the Baha'i Faith? They say we're heading for disaster, and their prophet's teachings are the only thing that can save us. But, like other religions, they had to throw in "stuff" that is just too hard to accept as true and believable. So, for some of us, their little baby religion gets tossed out with the bath water.

 

[Trailblazer]

If your God existed then everything would be his responsibility. Everything. Good. Bad. Both. Neither. Everything.

That is completely illogical since God gave man free will and dominion over the earth.
Man is thus responsible for the earth and his own free will choices.

 

[Trailblazer]

So all religions ever conceived are revelations by the same deity?

Yes, but only all true religions, not the false ones.

 

[Scolopendra]

Yes, but only all true religions, not the false ones.

Pretty convenient. And how do you decide which one are false?

 

[Trailblazer]

Pretty convenient. And how do you decide which one are false?

Well, that is BIG subject, a subject for another day because I was just about to log off.
If you can ask me some specific questions hopefully I can answer them tomorrow.

 

[ppp]

That is completely illogical since God gave man free will and dominion over the earth.

Sorry, but no. Neither of those things would negate the responsibility of your purported god.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sorry, but no. Neither of those things would negate the responsibility of your purported god.

God has no responsibilities towards you or anyone else.
Whatever we get from God is only because of God's love, grace, and compassion. God does not need humans for anything since God is fully self-sufficient and fully self-sustaining. Logically then, whatever we get from God is only because God chooses to give it to us, since God does not have to give us anything, and God gets nothing for Himself by doing so.

Atheists have this kooky idea that because God is omnipotent that means God is responsible for everything but that is completely illogical. Omnipotence only means all-powerful but being all-powerful does not imply responsibility. There is no logical connection.

God would only be responsible for humans if God had created us as robots and gave us no free will to choose. Someone who makes robots is responsible to program them to do what he wants them to do.

 

[ppp]

God has no responsibilities towards you or anyone else.

You are using the word responsibility as some sort of personal obligation. I am not. I am using in the causal sense. Do you want to reconsider the rest of your response? I haven't read it yet.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are using the word responsibility as some sort of personal obligation. I am not. I am using in the causal sense. Do you want to reconsider the rest of your response? I haven't read it yet.

I need to know what you mean by "in a casual sense" before I can understand why you think God is responsible for everything.

You said:
If your God existed then everything would be his responsibility. Everything. Good. Bad. Both. Neither. Everything.

 

[ppp]

I need to know what you mean by "in a casual sense" before I can understand why you think God is responsible for everything.

You said:
If your God existed then everything would be his responsibility. Everything. Good. Bad. Both. Neither. Everything.

If I intentionally create a situation that can cause a result, then I am responsible for that result when it occurs. It does not mean that I am the sole cause, but my responsibility is not erased just because another actor stands between me and that result.