Atheists have faith.

[TransmutingSoul]

Said the slave driver.

That has been my work life, as I see work is a service to humanity. I drove myself

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Some people have faith in political.parties, but not gods.

Yes that is a level of faith we can have, Regards Tony.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why do you want to believe in religions?

It was never a want, it was an amazing discovery of what we are here for.

Regards Tony

 

[blü 2]

What I am thinking is that Evolution is one of things we take on Faith, there is no solid answer as to the source of our evolution.

The evidence is consistent with there being a first self-replicating cell, whence all the rest. When we come across evidence that about one fifth of the genes some slime molds have their equivalent in humans, common ancestry is (it seems to me) by far the strongest and simplest explanation.

Nature and Nurture I see can bring the best out of us, or bring the worst out of us, so what does it take to make the conscious effort to do naught but the good? Does that require a level of faith?

As I said, I think we're born with the capacity for good, for fairness and kindness. If we were lions, I dare say those traits wouldn't always be so helpful when it came to surviving long enough to breed.

 

[viole]

This OP was inspired by a response in another post.

What is it to have Faith?

I see that many that do not have a belief in God or a Religion, still have Faith. I see that many actions are based on morals that transcend this mortal world and are thus undertaken in Faith.

It could be seen that it is naught but a faith to take a stance that there is no God.

Could that be a coping mechanism, that those that choose this path will not be held accountable for their decisions, that they think they are free of the weight of this world, that they will live how they want to, die and that's it?

Does this free a person from considering that there may be deeper moral or ethical responsibilities, when all we have to use as boundaries, are the materialistic trends?

Personally I have faith and I am thankful that I will be accountable for the decisions I make and the weight of the world can be fully experienced and appreciated.

"All humanity must obtain a livelihood by sweat of the brow and bodily exertion, at the same time seeking to lift the burden of others, striving to be the source of comfort to souls and facilitating the means of living. This in itself is devotion to God. Bahá’u’lláh has thereby encouraged action and stimulated service."

‘Abdu’l-Bahá: Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 182

" Every person must have an occupation, a trade or a craft, so that he may carry other people's burdens, and not himself be a burden to others."

‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 3

Faith is a service to all we cross paths with, without faith, one can deprive themselves from such service. With Faith our heart longs to be of this service.

So I see an Athiest can have Faith when they too transcend their own desires and serve others in preference of self.

So that is the debate, but is it really a debate?

Do you give of yourself to others?

As this action is a fundamental Faith based moral decision, do you have faith that action leads to better outcomes?

Regards Tony

P/S Edited as the purpose is to explore our actions against faith, it is not to bash an atheist. Sorry it was not well worded.

Well, then everybody has faith, and "faithful" would become a useless attribute. A tautological expression that says nothing.
Expressions like "people of faith" would be equivalent to "bachelors that are not married".

Ciao

- viole

 

[RestlessSoul]

Convincing oneself is not the same as proving. If it was a proof one could convince any rational person.

Yeah, that’s pretty much what I said. I can prove God to my own satisfaction, indeed I have done so; God is as real to me as the wind at my back. You may prefer another word than “proof”. Whatever, choose your own then. I cannot prove God to you - only you and your creator can do that.

 

[viole]

Could that be a coping mechanism, that those that choose this path will not be held accountable for their decisions, that they think they are free of the weight of this world, that they will live how they want to, die and that's it?

Does this free a person from considering that there may be deeper moral or ethical responsibilities, when all we have to use as boundaries, are the materialistic trends?

Personally I have faith and I am thankful that I will be accountable for the decisions I make and the weight of the world can be fully experienced and appreciated.

Well, if you think that losing your faith tomorrow might turn you into Jack the Ripper, then keep believing. By all means.

Ciao

- viole

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why do you think that a God is necessary or even evinced by those actions?

Lets just see 'God' as our motivation to higher ideals and morals. Does the world need people that have that aim, but most importantly desire and practice to achieve that aim?

Regards Tony

 

[ratiocinator]

I see that many that do not have a belief in God or a Religion, still have Faith.

I have not really defined faith fully, I never have really considered it in the past.

You capitalised 'Faith' but you don't know what it means?

I see that many actions are based on morals that transcend this mortal world and are thus undertaken in Faith.

Why do you think morals "transcend this mortal world"? What does it even mean to "transcend this mortal world"?

It could be seen that it is naught but a faith to take a stance that there is no God.

Few atheists do. We tend to say that we have see no reason to take any of the god claims seriously. It's seeing no more reason to think there is a god than there is to believe in any other superstition.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You are confounding morality and faith. Motivation to act morally exists without faith and without god. Acting morally does not prove faith or god. You’re simply applying your belief system to a set of facts when the reality is that the atheist acts good (and often better than the religious) for a variety of reason (evolution, parental instincts, and so on). I recommend you read Sam Harris.

That is what the OP is exploring, where does the motivation actually stem from, our animal self or a higher self, is it not faith to see that morality makes a better world? Sure we can play with words like faith, but to me faith encompasses all virtue and morality as these are what build civilizations.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No. This is wrong. The uneducated may take evolution on faith. Those that study the science do not

I can see how you might have to take it on faith. I don't, and you too could learn how we know that we are a product of evolution.

I am so sorry, but this was so wrong that I had to answer it twice

Well is it not faith in science that you see what was offered was wrong? I see that the answer is still not known and I see that the human species has evolved as the Human species. There is a very good logical talk given on this topic.

Regards Tony

 

[ratiocinator]

I would guess same as you chose not to. Its personal choice.

I don't see how belief can be a choice. You are either convinced by something or you're not.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We could get into specifics, but the odds are that you will cherry pick. Religions do that quite often. They count the hits and ignore the misses. That allows people to believe almost anything that they want to.

I see both the good and bad are all God given. I also see that this is not and indication of any imperfection, but a sign of perfection.

We will always find differences if we look for them, the harder and most worthy goal is looking for the connections. I have faith that is the best option.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

As I said, I think we're born with the capacity for good, for fairness and kindness. If we were lions, I dare say those traits wouldn't always be so helpful when it came to surviving long enough to breed.

I agree 100% with this comment.

I would add that what is yet to be explored, IMHO, is the spirit behind the vegetable, animal and human kingdoms. As a human, I see we have evolved in the capacity of that kingdom, which also encompasses all the lower kingdoms.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, then everybody has faith, and "faithful" would become a useless attribute. A tautological expression that says nothing.
Expressions like "people of faith" would be equivalent to "bachelors that are not married".

Ciao

- viole

I do not see any attributes as being useless, especially if we all use them to the best of our ability!

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, if you think that losing your faith tomorrow might turn you into Jack the Ripper, then keep believing. By all means.

Ciao

- viole

Who knows what I may have chosen? Faith changed many of my decisions, lack of faith directed me on paths that I could not balance in virtue.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You capitalised 'Faith' but you don't know what it means?

On a phone at the time, and caps lock is always an issue to untrained two finger keyboard users

Why do you think morals "transcend this mortal world"? What does it even mean to "transcend this mortal world"?

The mortal world is all the senses. Virtue and attributes can not be explained by the senses, they transcend and takes us to another plane of understandings.

Few atheists do. We tend to say that we have see no reason to take any of the god claims seriously. It's seeing no more reason to think there is a god than there is to believe in any other superstition.

The OP offers that our virtues and morals and our ethics will define us, and not any faith we claim, or do not claim.

Regards Tony

 

[viole]

Who knows what I may have chosen? Faith changed many of my decisions, lack of faith directed me on paths that I could not balance in virtue.

Regards Tony

Well, I hope you do not claim that faith (in a god) is a necessary requirement to do that. Because, as Einstein said, we would be a pretty sorry lot, indeed.

In my view, someone who behaves morally even when she knows there is no police, is morally superior to someone who does not know if she would.

Ciao

- √iole

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, I hope you do not claim that faith (in a god) is a necessary requirement to do that. Because, as Einstein said, we would be a pretty sorry lot, indeed.

In my view, someone who behaves morally even when she knows there is no police, is morally superior to someone who does not know if she would.

Ciao

- √iole

That is exactly what the OP is about, what is the motivation.

Regards Tony

 

[Mock Turtle]

I don't think it useful to ever use the word faith in a context where trust or confidence would be more appropriate, and which we all tend to have regarding many things. It would be much like using these latter terms to indicate a religious faith, and where the level of trust or confidence might vary but where faith tends to imply a wholesale commitment to any religious belief. I don't have faith, in this sense, as to virtually anything, including my own beliefs, but I do have trust and confidence in these and in many things that might materially affect my life, and being so is a lot higher than any faith - since I do have to have complete trust them so often. Try abseiling down a mountain without relying on the strength of the rope, the anchor points, and any other equipment used. If I had faith in such things it would be higher than any other faith I might ever have - otherwise I might be rather stupid.

As I don't have any belief that morals come from anywhere other than our historical past (as a species), and how we absorb such during childhood, I just see what we do as being aspects of humanity, and of course we are responsible for the good and/or bad that we do with the consequences that will happen - or often don't happen. Religions just muddy the waters - by their differing views as to such - and their being fixed to some past time.