Atheists have faith.

[wandering peacefully]

I see it is somewhat a coping mechanism, that those that choose this path will not be held accountable for their decisions, that they think they are free of the weight of this world, that they will live how they want to, die and that's it. It appears that It frees them from considering that there may be deeper moral or ethical responsibilities, when all we have to use as boundaries, are the materialistic trends.

Ridiculous. What's even more ridiculous is seeing someone who claims to be so morally superior with supernatural insight via God and who spends countless hours on an internet forum with atheists, failing so miserably at judging the actual character and morals of those atheists.

I suggest you ask what atheists are doing to try to improve the long history of religious immorality., bigotry, self-ighteousness and degradation of the planet all carried out in the name of their imaginary Gods.

What is it you are actually doing to improve these wrongs? What are you doing to save nature or help your fellow humans? I can say that repeating childish myths about the evil atheists on an internet forum doesn't make for a moral or ethical person. Repeating words from a long dead crazy man does nothing except make people like that feel better about their own useless and miserable lives.
Atheists have more morals and ethics in their little toenails than most self proclaimed, superior religionists who have nothing to contribute to improving the actual lives of others or the planet and instead sit around posting childish lies about atheists on an internet forum.

 

[ChristineM]

Ridiculous. What's even more ridiculous is seeing someone who claims to be so morally superior with supernatural insight via God and who spends countless hours on an internet forum with atheists, failing so miserably at judging the actual character and morals of those atheists.

I suggest you ask what atheists are doing to try to improve the long history of religious immorality., bigotry, self-ighteousness and degradation of the planet all carried out in the name of their imaginary Gods.

What is it you are actually doing to improve these wrongs? What are you doing to save nature or help your fellow humans? I can say that repeating childish myths about the evil atheists on an internet forum doesn't make for a moral or ethical person. Repeating words from a long dead crazy man does nothing except make people like that feel better about their own useless and miserable lives.
Atheists have more morals and ethics in their little toenails than most self proclaimed, superior religionists who have nothing to contribute to improving the actual lives of others or the planet and instead sit around posting childish lies about atheists on an internet forum.

Thank you.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

This OP was inspired by a response in another post.

What is it to have Faith?

I see that many that do not have a belief in God or a Religion, still have Faith. I see that many actions are based on morals that transcend this mortal world and are thus undertaken in Faith.

I also see that it is naught but a faith to take a stance that there is no God. I see it is somewhat a coping mechanism, that those that choose this path will not be held accountable for their decisions, that they think they are free of the weight of this world, that they will live how they want to, die and that's it. It appears that It frees them from considering that there may be deeper moral or ethical responsibilities, when all we have to use as boundaries, are the materialistic trends.

I have faith and I am thankful that I will be accountable for the decisions I make and the weight of the world can be fully experienced and appreciated.

"All humanity must obtain a livelihood by sweat of the brow and bodily exertion, at the same time seeking to lift the burden of others, striving to be the source of comfort to souls and facilitating the means of living. This in itself is devotion to God. Bahá’u’lláh has thereby encouraged action and stimulated service."

‘Abdu’l-Bahá: Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 182

" Every person must have an occupation, a trade or a craft, so that he may carry other people's burdens, and not himself be a burden to others."

‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 3

Faith is a service to all we cross paths with, without faith, one can deprive themselves from such service. With Faith our heart longs to be of this service.

So I see an Athiest can have Faith when they too transcend their own desires and serve others in preference of self.

So that is the debate, but is it really a debate?

Do you give of yourself to others?

As this action is a fundamental Faith based moral decision, do you have faith that action leads to better outcomes?

Regards Tony

Why do you insist on capitalizing faith? Do you do the same with trust? With envy, greed, lust, keen interest?

Are you trying to insist that there is something extra-special magical about "faith" when all it ever means to me is "trust and confidence?"

It is in the nature of humans, especially those with some vocabulary, to use synonyms and other word choices when the context makes it appropriate -- without it actually taking on any additional meaning.

"I lent money to a friend, but no worries, I trust he'll pay me back. He always has before."

"I have faith that when I'm sick, my lover will take care of me, though this hasn't happened yet. I know he has faith that I'll take care of him, because this has happened, and I've spent the last several years getting him through the devastation of very severe GBS."

But despite the choice of words, there's no magic in the use of the word "faith" over "trust." Just the context makes it a better literary choice -- nothing more than that.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

imo, I think some people who claim to believe in a god and go to church, can possibly not have any faith. Although they will refer to their “religion” as their faith. Faith is a tough concept to grasp. imo

I think that is a reasonable thought. Some do it as it is traditional.

Faith I see is a step beyond the outer name, no matter what we call it.

Regards Tony

 

[Heyo]

What I am thinking is that there are many levels of Faith.

We have an ultimate level of Faith right to the complete lack of it.

So the OP is really about how much Faith does an Atheist really have and how can that be measured?

I agree that there is a continuum rather than a dichotomy. But equivocating a faith against all evidence with a reasonable expectation based on previous experience doesn't help us.
I propose setting (arbitrary but agreed upon) thresholds.
When a prediction does come true in >99% of times, it doesn't take a lot of faith.

I have posted one standard, which reaches towards the highest levels.

"All humanity must obtain a livelihood by sweat of the brow and bodily exertion, at the same time seeking to lift the burden of others, striving to be the source of comfort to souls and facilitating the means of living."

It then says that "This in itself is devotion to God".

Regards Tony

Where is the prediction here? To me this seems a non sequitur.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And that, to me, seems like religious practitioners trying to say that non-believers are acting under religion anyway.

Frankly, that sounds a bit presumptuous.

I did not offer religion I am offering that we all embrace life with a level of Faith.

The quotes are offering, that if you have in life implemented those actions, then you have found what true faith is.

Regards Tony

 

[osgart]

The idea that you need a crutch to be a good person is horrible. If God is used as a crutch for that reason then believers are denying that people can be good of their own accord.

And to say that there is no morality without God is not necessarily true. I can find a truthful morality without invoking God.

I simply see no reason, no observation, and have no experience of a God. And personally I would love for there to be a God and not for reasons of dependency.

As a youth I struggled to know myself mainly because of being raised on a Bible. I always came up with more questions than that book can try to handle. I always found inconsistencies and errors in the Bible. And I always tested it's wisdom with regards to human beings. It always failed.

I'll never blindly accept any precepts of a God. Truthfully a person has to understand and see things for themself to ever make progress. No God can do that to you, or for you.

As an atheist I concluded that there is no God. I'm certain of it. No faith needed. I have many reasons. If I thought they were bad reasons I wouldn't carry on with them.

God for me is a thought experiment, and a curiosity to study believers that affect my life.


I have no problem with non conflicting God believers. But those that make guilty sentence of me for being atheist, well, that's where my problem is.

 

[ChristineM]

very severe GBS

I hope he is recovering well.

 

[Left Coast]

I also see that it is naught but a faith to take a stance that there is no God. I see it is somewhat a coping mechanism, that those that choose this path will not be held accountable for their decisions, that they think they are free of the weight of this world, that they will live how they want to, die and that's it. It appears that It frees them from considering that there may be deeper moral or ethical responsibilities, when all we have to use as boundaries, are the materialistic trends.

Where are all of these hedonistic, selfish, amoral atheists running around with no care in the world because they don't believe in a god?

This is a silly caricature, not a serious description of real people.

At least do the tiniest bit of inquiry before you opine about what motivates people. Have you ever talked to any of us before about it?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

From my vast experience posting to atheists day and night for about nine years, in my opinion atheists have faith in themselves in that they are self-reliant. I used to be that way even as a believer but I finally learned that I cannot FULLY rely upon myself, sometimes I need God to bail me out of the mess I am in....I now rely upon that most of the time. I try to take the necessary steps in order to make that possible, but sometimes I am unable to do so and I have found that God will often assist me in doing what I need to do.... Can I ever prove that? Hell no!

Well...I don't think it's correct to say we have total faith in ourselves. But we have an expectation that we need to be self reliant, in a cosmic sense.

We need help, and others, just like anyone.

 

[ecco]

I see that many that do not have a belief in God or a Religion, still have Faith.

Why did you capitalize the word "Faith"? Do you not know that there are multiple definitions for the word "faith" just as there are for hundreds of other words in the English language? Of course you do. You've been on this forum for four years. Surely you have seen other religious people try to make the same spurious argument that you are presenting. So, why the deceptiveness?

I see that many actions are based on morals that transcend this mortal world and are thus undertaken in Faith.

Many actions like what? Not stealing or beating someone up? That is not based on faith or Faith, that is based on tens of thousands of years of evolution. We evolved into a society of groups of people. We had to learn to live with one another.

I am aware that for some religious folk, the fear of God is what keeps them in line. Rational atheists do not need the threat of a big stick hovering about our asses to be decent humans. Again, I'm sure that in the four years you have been a member of RF, others have said the same thing to you.

I also see that it is naught but a faith to take a stance that there is no God.

No. Actually you do not see. One reason you cannot see is because you are not an atheist. Another reason you cannot see is because you choose to disregard what any atheist has ever said to you on this subject. You find it more meaningful to erect silly strawmen.

I see it is somewhat a coping mechanism, that those that choose this path will not be held accountable for their decisions, that they think they are free of the weight of this world, that they will live how they want to, die and that's it.

Speaking for myself, I am held accountable by my friends and family and peers every day for my actions.

I need no coping mechanism (whatever the hell that is) to defend my actions to a non-existent entity that I will never encounter.




If you act as you do primarily because you are concerned with meeting your maker, that is your problem.

 

[Twilight Hue]

This OP was inspired by a response in another post.

What is it to have Faith?

I see that many that do not have a belief in God or a Religion, still have Faith. I see that many actions are based on morals that transcend this mortal world and are thus undertaken in Faith.

I also see that it is naught but a faith to take a stance that there is no God. I see it is somewhat a coping mechanism, that those that choose this path will not be held accountable for their decisions, that they think they are free of the weight of this world, that they will live how they want to, die and that's it. It appears that It frees them from considering that there may be deeper moral or ethical responsibilities, when all we have to use as boundaries, are the materialistic trends.

I have faith and I am thankful that I will be accountable for the decisions I make and the weight of the world can be fully experienced and appreciated.

"All humanity must obtain a livelihood by sweat of the brow and bodily exertion, at the same time seeking to lift the burden of others, striving to be the source of comfort to souls and facilitating the means of living. This in itself is devotion to God. Bahá’u’lláh has thereby encouraged action and stimulated service."

‘Abdu’l-Bahá: Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 182

" Every person must have an occupation, a trade or a craft, so that he may carry other people's burdens, and not himself be a burden to others."

‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 3

Faith is a service to all we cross paths with, without faith, one can deprive themselves from such service. With Faith our heart longs to be of this service.

So I see an Athiest can have Faith when they too transcend their own desires and serve others in preference of self.

So that is the debate, but is it really a debate?

Do you give of yourself to others?

As this action is a fundamental Faith based moral decision, do you have faith that action leads to better outcomes?

Regards Tony

Sorry. I don't ascribe to a Franz Reichalt type of faith.

 

[ecco]

Faith I see is a step beyond the outer name, no matter what we call it.

Some of us would call it woo.

 

[Trailblazer]

Where are all of these hedonistic, selfish, amoral atheists running around with no care in the world because they don't believe in a god?

They must be invisible because I have never seen them.

but I have see plenty of believers who are running around like that because they believe they are saved and forgiven.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Where are all of these hedonistic, selfish, amoral atheists running around with no care in the world because they don't believe in a god?

This is a silly caricature, not a serious description of real people.

At least do the tiniest bit of inquiry before you opine about what motivates people. Have you ever talked to any of us before about it?

Did I offer that Atheists were not moral?

If I did, sorry. I had a look at the wording and yes it can be seen that way. I should reword it. I guess I am more looking for the motivation to undertake charitable work as to me is really based in faith based actions. No matter what source you see that faith comes from, or even if one does not consider it faith based.

What was offered is if they do care for life and lived that life in service to others, then they had a level of faith that even people of a proclaimed faith rarely find.

Sorry I did it all too quiclkly and now back to work. So not enough thought went into it.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

They must be invisible because I have never seen them.

That would be my take as well, I need to reword the OP

Unfortunately now gone to work, so it will have to remain messy.

Regards Tony

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Seems as if an atheist has faith that there is No God.
Since it can Not be proven there is No God then it is the exercise of 'faith' in the non-existence of God.

Does make one wonder since we don't see anyone trying to convince or fight over the existence of Santa Claus because everyone knows Santa does Not exist, then why do atheists try to convince others over something that 'they' know is Not real ?

Santa has less impact on abortion laws.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So do you see we all have the ability of Faith, that all we need to know is if it exists?

So we fly because we see a aircraft exists, we have faith it will fly?

Regards Tony

No, that is a belief based upon past performance, Not faith. I would only be "faith" if no one had no idea that a plane could fly.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I base my Faith on the Person's, the Lives and the Messages of all the Messengers.

I have Faith they were as claimed.

Regards Tony

That is a rather poor definition. It sounds like you are simply saying that you believe because you want to believe.

 

[Nimos]

So I see an Athiest can have Faith when they too transcend their own desires and serve others in preference of self.

So that is the debate, but is it really a debate?

Do you give of yourself to others?

As this action is a fundamental Faith based moral decision, do you have faith that action leads to better outcomes?

Regards Tony

P/S Edited as the purpose is to explore our actions against faith, it is not to bash an atheist. Sorry it was not well worded.

I don't think you bash atheists.

And I do agree with you that atheists have faith, but I think everyone have faith, but for an atheist it is simply not a religious motivated faith. Meaning the faith doesn't apply to God(s).

No different than you as a Bahai, probably doesn't have a lot of faith in Thor and Odin, because you do not see evidence for them. But you might still have faith in everyday things you do, in your wife, kids, boss, friends etc. Exactly like atheists does it, the only difference is that one God, otherwise I don't believe there is any difference at all between religious people and atheists.

Faith is basically just to trust something without knowing it with absolute certainty. And since nothing is or can be known with absolute certainty, you could say that faith is everywhere, if we have to go to the extreme.