1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Atheists' bizarre way asking for "proof of God"

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by stvdv, Jun 8, 2021.

  1. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    17,684
    Ratings:
    +8,367
    Religion:
    Philosophical Taoist/Christian
    It's not about the cars, but the people driving them. And our trusting in the idea that they will behave reasonably. We think they probably will, but we can't know it. So we have to trust in our hope that they will.

    It's the same with the ideal of 'God', except that we have no way of establishing probability. So we are left with the choice to trust in our hope that God exists and is benevolent, or not to. And act accordingly, to see how that works out for us. All this BS about proof and evidence is irrelevant. It's a simple faith choice.
     
  2. Friend of Mara

    Friend of Mara Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    266
    Ratings:
    +186
    Religion:
    Spiritual
    You could notion that but it seems to simply to the point of inaccuracy.

    I hold the explanation behind religion in higher regard than the alternative answer that religion is the answer. Its not even so much a choice on my part but simply how I see it.
    While I'm sure it exists I feel my above answer works in either scenario. We know how and why religiosity can grow in the human psyche and it is an interesting psychological phenomenon that people find comfort when "spiritual" needs are met. Though at the end of the day its still just an interesting psychological question. And this holds just as true to the religious fanatic to the most reasonable of spiritual folk.
    Mythology and the nature/existence of god are not separate. The Greeks felt every bit as sure in their faith as the Christians or the Egyptians or the Muslims or the Japanese or the Hindu people. Hinduism is a religion today and not a mythology purely based on its current number of worshipers.

    I don't see how it is a strawman. Perhaps the philosophical take leads to thought experiments wroth considering for your own contemplation? But as far as the root of "why" humans have superstition, religion, mythology and conspiracy theories. I'm not trying to compare things one might consider "lesser" than religion to strawman them but simply to state that the mechanisms that lead people to believe these things are in common.

    Are you asking why I am skeptical vs not being skeptical? I hope I have misunderstood that part and hopefully you can clarify that.

    Those kinds of questions seem silly to me. Have I taken part in "spiritual" health to attempt to better myself? Yes. But it is usually with meditation, contemplation or both. I don't think such a thing as a "god" exist. If it does exist it doesn't affect my life. I do take my own experiences as evidence for my personal life. That is just called personal growth though. Nothing to do with existential beings or really even concepts.

    If you want an example of a thought experiment I've had that was "spiritual" but not religious in any way would be this. The universe is one thing. We are all part of the whole. My sentience is the universe's sentience. If there is a god it would be the universe and I am part of that universe. Part of the whole. I find that to be a good meditation topic to help ground me if my anxiety starts to act up.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. F1fan

    F1fan Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2021
    Messages:
    766
    Ratings:
    +479
    Religion:
    Buddhist
    We have to trust others just to carry on with our goals in life, we have no real choice in the matter. It's part of the social contract we assume as social and civilized beings. The risk we take in driving, running, cycling on roads is mitigated with laws, but even that doesn't remove the risk. We can't let fear totally control our decisions. I've had quite a few cycling friends killed and injured by drunk and careless drivers over the years, but we cyclists are aware there's a risk. There are things cyclists can do to help increase safety on the road.

    But contrast this with trusting a God. How does that work? You trust your child won't have serious health problems, but alas your three year old is diagnosed with Leukemia. But you trust in God that the doctors will implement painful treatments that will save your baby, but alas after 2 years the child dies. So an all-powerful god that supposedly can save the child and knows of your trust just decides to ignore you, and kill a child?

    As we see above regardless of how we fallible mortal extend trust, it is not always reliable or based on reality. Your scenario here admits you don't know if a God exists, and you are gambling with the hope that it does. You';re relying on your ability to create and illusion and work hard to maintain the deception to the self that it's real and helps. But despite this work you still know you're on your own, whether it's the illusion or having to make your own decisions in life to cope with whatever challenges come your way.

    What you describe is people who cannot trust themselves, nor have the confidence to navigate life with a realistic understanding of how things are.
     
  4. F1fan

    F1fan Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2021
    Messages:
    766
    Ratings:
    +479
    Religion:
    Buddhist
    To my mind to be spiritual is to acknowledge our brains have very primal impulses, and that we often inherit bad social habits, so we can apply practices to attain and maintain physical, emotional, and intellectual balance.

    I don't see many religions offering spiritual guidance, rather they offer a head full of concepts that keep a mind occupied, busy, and distracted with all sorts of drama. The more extreme forms seem to me as the antithesis to spiritual balance. I see these folks full of conflict, both inner conflict and with others.
     
  5. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    17,684
    Ratings:
    +8,367
    Religion:
    Philosophical Taoist/Christian
    The same way. "God" is the 'source, sustenance, and purpose of all that is'. And is therefor a mystery to us. The great mystery of (all/our) existence. And we need to be able to trust in this mystery to continue to function within it. Yet we don't know that we can trust existence not to harm us. Just like with the other drivers on the road. But still, we hope that we will be safe, and we choose to trust in that hope, and to act on that trust. Because the alternative is unacceptable. The alternative is fear and stagnation.

    But a lot of people have difficulty trusting in such an unknown as the 'great existential mystery'. So they personify it, feeling that somehow they can relate to it better, and interact with it in some way. Whole religions spring up with sets of rules and rituals that help people feel that they are able to trust in and interact with this great existential mystery. Others reject religion and turn to "scientism"; imagining that somehow science and empirical reasoning will provide them with the ability to control their own existential fate.

    But in the end we're all still living in the dark. And it's all still about finding and choosing the object and methods of our faith. "Belief" has nothing to do with it. Belief is just our egos telling us we're right when we really have no way of knowing that.

    Yes. And people do lose hope. But it's a horrible way to live. So most people find some way to hope and trust, again. The alternative is unacceptable.
    But the alternative is unacceptable.
    These are not mutually exclusive conditions. Everyone is having to make their own decisions and then hope and trust that they're the right decisions relative to the great existential mystery that we're living. Theism helps a whole lot of people do that. So does religion. So does science. So does logic, and reason, and intuition. So does engaging in the creative arts. So does philosophical discussion and debate. These are all tools that we humans use to try and deal with our own profound ignorance. And you are one of us, too. You are no different. You are just as 'unknowing' as the rest of us.
    We live in a profound state of ignorance. We have no idea why we are here, or to what end. Or what will happen to us or to those we care about at any given moment. So yes, we need to find things to hope in, and ways to trust in that hope, just so we can muster the courage to take action and see what comes of it.
     
  6. Kooky

    Kooky Freedom from Sanity

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2020
    Messages:
    1,844
    Ratings:
    +932
    Actually, I believe that all cars are self driving.
    Since we can't know for sure either way, that's the idea I simply find more compelling.
     
  7. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2005
    Messages:
    49,782
    Ratings:
    +14,377
    Religion:
    not a theist
    Pull the other one, it has bells on it.
     
  8. F1fan

    F1fan Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2021
    Messages:
    766
    Ratings:
    +479
    Religion:
    Buddhist
    Sorry, you don't get to refer to things not known to exist like gods as if they have a real effect on people's lives without FIRST showing they exist outside of human imagination.

    What are you talking about? Humans can't trust mystery. That is incomprehensible.

    Humans are like any other organism and we will die at some point. How and why can be any arbitrary thing.

    A lot of this sounds like you're creating problems for yourself and making yourself emotionally dependent on religious belief. And none of it solves any actual problems.

    This is why there is therapy and metal heath services. Self-deception through faith only masks the despair people have.

    You seem to be looking at the dependency on religion as a theist who is dependent on religion. You're likely one of the people born with a predisposition for the need to believe. You really have no interest in understand the nature of how your mind is reliant on religion because that will create even more distress.


    I see a lot of religious folks create this serious mystery about life that then pushes them to find god or meaning or whatever. It's all mental theater. Objective thinkers are bored with it.
     
Loading...