Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Nimos]

So you claim to be an atheist, the burden of proof is on you, you have proof there is no God?

You never have to prove a negative. Just as you doesn't have to prove that unicorns doesn't exist either. You have also looked at the lack of evidence for such being and concluded that they don't exist.

So it sounds like you more interested in the "words" he used rather than what he is saying. But even if he deliberately reached the conclusion that God(s) doesn't exists based on looking at the evidence. He still doesn't have to prove a negative.

If he claim that there is "no God" then you would be fair in asking for evidence for why he make such claim.

 

[infrabenji]

It is an awakening from within that has no need to be scientific proven, other than to those who disbelieve in spiritual practice

It is an awakening from within that has no need to be scientific proven, other than to those who disbelieve in spiritual practice. I disbelieve in the efficacy of spiritual practice. I don't believe there is even a spiritual. That would make me "the other" that you mentioned. You do realize your on my forum page titled Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced. If you can't provide anything but anecdotal evidence for your beliefs there is not really much to work with there. You might as well say the lucky charms guy gives you wisdom in your sleep but only to those who the sleeper has awoken. If I have to believe you without evidence then that's faith and faith isn't a reliable pathway to truth. Truth is something I need if I want my beliefs to align with reality. Which i do. Do you want your beliefs to align with reality if not, no worries. But, if you do then you need to be honest about the fact you only have an argument from personal experience which has been shown time and time again to be full of holes. Big ones. Doesn't that give you pause? Shouldn't you be able to demonstrate with evidence something true? I mean it's true not fake not false true. I can't think of a single truth in my life that I cannot prove is true.

 

[Spirit of Light]

It is an awakening from within that has no need to be scientific proven, other than to those who disbelieve in spiritual practice. I disbelieve in the efficacy of spiritual practice. I don't believe there is even a spiritual. That would make me "the other" that you mentioned. You do realize your on my forum page titled Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced. If you can't provide anything but anecdotal evidence for your beliefs there is not really much to work with there. You might as well say the lucky charms guy gives you wisdom in your sleep but only to those who the sleeper has awoken. If I have to believe you without evidence then that's faith and faith isn't a reliable pathway to truth. Truth is something I need if I want my beliefs to align with reality. Which i do. Do you want your beliefs to align with reality if not, no worries. But, if you do then you need to be honest about the fact you only have an argument from personal experience which has been shown time and time again to be full of holes. Big ones. Doesn't that give you pause? Shouldn't you be able to demonstrate with evidence something true? I mean it's true not fake not false true. I can't think of a single truth in my life that I cannot prove is true.

As a sufi, i have no wish or need to convince you of anything, nor do i have a wish to convert you.
Because the only one who can awaken to the spiritual truth is your self. No matter what I would tell you it would have no value to you. Because what I speak of is my own personal experience study sufi teaching and the quran.
So your path in a spiritual practice would be your experience not mine.

I can not teach you to become a believer, only you can become a believer if you practice a spiritual teaching.

 

[Clara Tea]

paraphrased: Convince me (atheist).

Atheists, by definition, don't believe in God.

This doesn't mean faithless.

Trust and faith are almost identical.

Many people trust that their spouses won't cheat, or trust that a car will stop before running them down in a crosswalk. Without trust, people would have to hide in their homes and stay away from one another.

Atheists don't have faith in God because, they say, God cannot be proven (and this is the main thrust of your argument).

Yet, there are sections of the bible that discuss predictions (by psychics). Police departments and the CIA have hired psychics (using taxpayer's money) to help them solve crimes or spy. Obviously they believe that psychic powers (aka ESP) are real. Dr. Jessica Utts, professor of statistics (department of math) at UC Irvine, says that she proved that ESP is real (working in conjunction with the Stanford Research Institute and Project MKULTRA (of the CIA), and that mainstream scientists poopoo the notion merely because it is weird (like the X-files), and they would be shunned like Spooky Mulder (X-files) if they so much as entertained the notion that it was real.

As an example of ESP, there will be a major earthquake in the Aleutian island chain (that extends across the Pacific Ocean from Alaska, going westward toward Russia). It will be some time this month, and likely located near the Alaskan Islands of Semipochnoi or Unalaska, some time within the next month.

The bible uses psychic prophets. For example, Revelation in the bible said that two demons from the bottomless pit of hell would escape hell and inhabit the bodies of presidents of the most powerful nation in the world (Revelation 17:18...the Woman that you saw (Whore of Babylon).....is the United States which defeated, occupied, and corrupted Iraq.) Revelation 15 (seven plagues are coming because Iraq was attacked), then God will end the world. In complete detail, the wars in Iraq were mentioned. All you have to do is realize that President George Bush Sr. is the dragon (evil spirit), and that President W. Bush (Jr.) is the beast (evil spirit), in order to prove that psychic predictions are real.

Clearly the entire bible couldn't have been written without psychics. Statements of individual apostles were made in the bible, which was written by divine revelation at least 100 years after the death of all of the apostles.

It isn't much of a leap to believe that the bible is correct and that God is real, given that psychic events are real. How could thoughts be in the air around us, and organized, and accessible in the future and in the past? Maybe God's brain exists in the same medium?

 

[infrabenji]

Well straight away we run into trouble, because I do not accept your basic premise, nor do I acknowledge the terms you have set to frame the debate.

However, your question is worthy of a response, and I will get back to you when i have the time. I'm just about to go outside into that thing called the real world.

Just to clarify you reject the premise that critical thinking and all that are the best tools we have for determining the truth of a claim? I can demonstrate with evidence that the methodologies I've listed are in fact the best methods we have. Very easily. Do you know of better ones. I'd love to know if you've some secret tools laying around I haven't heard of. That would be awesome. Secret knowledge or something? You have in fact made a claim. All I'm asking for is some proof or at least an explanation about this transcendent thing you claimed existed. You are on a religious debates forum. It probably goes that you would be asked to demonstrate in some way the truth of your beliefs. Of course the expectation is that if you cannot you reevaluate your beliefs and apply the same scrutiny I will if you're able to demonstrate to me that you are in fact, right and what you say proves to be true. I look forward to your response. Hopefully, I learn something new.

 

[infrabenji]

As a sufi, i have no wish or need to convince you of anything, nor do i have a wish to convert you.
Because the only one who can awaken to the spiritual truth is your self. No matter what I would tell you it would have no value to you. Because what I speak of is my own personal experience study sufi teaching and the quran.
So your path in a spiritual practice would be your experience not mine.

I can not teach you to become a believer, only you can become a believer if you practice a spiritual teaching.

If you have no evidence to support the truth of your beliefs except an argument from personal experience why are you on a page dedicated to religious debate? Wouldn't it make more sense for you to be amongst people who already share your values?

 

[Clara Tea]

It is an awakening from within that has no need to be scientific proven, other than to those who disbelieve in spiritual practice. I disbelieve in the efficacy of spiritual practice. I don't believe there is even a spiritual. That would make me "the other" that you mentioned. You do realize your on my forum page titled Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced. If you can't provide anything but anecdotal evidence for your beliefs there is not really much to work with there. You might as well say the lucky charms guy gives you wisdom in your sleep but only to those who the sleeper has awoken. If I have to believe you without evidence then that's faith and faith isn't a reliable pathway to truth. Truth is something I need if I want my beliefs to align with reality. Which i do. Do you want your beliefs to align with reality if not, no worries. But, if you do then you need to be honest about the fact you only have an argument from personal experience which has been shown time and time again to be full of holes. Big ones. Doesn't that give you pause? Shouldn't you be able to demonstrate with evidence something true? I mean it's true not fake not false true. I can't think of a single truth in my life that I cannot prove is true.

Two proofs that God exists:

1. Look for a rock in a rock pile, as a sign of God.

2. Writhe on the floor babbling in tongues (God's language) as proof.

 

[Spirit of Light]

If you have no evidence to support the truth of your beliefs except an argument from personal experience why are you on a page dedicated to religious debate? Wouldn't it make more sense for you to be amongst people who already share your values?

I believe in the sufi teaching, does that exlude me to discuss/debate? No
If you have little or no experience with religious practice and only know it by books, does it exlude you from discussion or debate with one who practice? No

RF is an open place to hold discussion . It does not say a believer can not debate just because he or she has personal experience.

 

[infrabenji]

Atheists, by definition, don't believe in God.

This doesn't mean faithless.

Trust and faith are almost identical.

Many people trust that their spouses won't cheat, or trust that a car will stop before running them down in a crosswalk. Without trust, people would have to hide in their homes and stay away from one another.

Atheists don't have faith in God because, they say, God cannot be proven (and this is the main thrust of your argument).

Yet, there are sections of the bible that discuss predictions (by psychics). Police departments and the CIA have hired psychics (using taxpayer's money) to help them solve crimes or spy. Obviously they believe that psychic powers (aka ESP) are real. Dr. Jessica Utts, professor of statistics (department of math) at UC Irvine, says that she proved that ESP is real (working in conjunction with the Stanford Research Institute and Project MKULTRA (of the CIA), and that mainstream scientists poopoo the notion merely because it is weird (like the X-files), and they would be shunned like Spooky Mulder (X-files) if they so much as entertained the notion that it was real.

As an example of ESP, there will be a major earthquake in the Aleutian island chain (that extends across the Pacific Ocean from Alaska, going westward toward Russia). It will be some time this month, and likely located near the Alaskan Islands of Semipochnoi or Unalaska, some time within the next month.

The bible uses psychic prophets. For example, Revelation in the bible said that two demons from the bottomless pit of hell would escape hell and inhabit the bodies of presidents of the most powerful nation in the world (Revelation 17:18...the Woman that you saw (Whore of Babylon).....is the United States which defeated, occupied, and corrupted Iraq.) Revelation 15 (seven plagues are coming because Iraq was attacked), then God will end the world. In complete detail, the wars in Iraq were mentioned. All you have to do is realize that President George Bush Sr. is the dragon (evil spirit), and that President W. Bush (Jr.) is the beast (evil spirit), in order to prove that psychic predictions are real.

Clearly the entire bible couldn't have been written without psychics. Statements of individual apostles were made in the bible, which was written by divine revelation at least 100 years after the death of all of the apostles.

It isn't much of a leap to believe that the bible is correct and that God is real, given that psychic events are real. How could thoughts be in the air around us, and organized, and accessible in the future and in the past? Maybe God's brain exists in the same medium?

This is a religious debates page. Not your personal soapbox. Go preach somewhere else unless your honestly willing to engage in polite yet good natured discourse. By honest I mean intellectually honest.

 

[infrabenji]

Two proofs that God exists:

1. Look for a rock in a rock pile, as a sign of God.

2. Writhe on the floor babbling in tongues (God's language) as proof.

So... nonsense. Thanks. Clara tea you are a treasure. I hope to see you again on a forum more likely suited to your special brand of spirituality. I'd love to see what a whole room full of people like you would look like.

 

[infrabenji]

I believe in the sufi teaching, does that exlude me to discuss/debate? No
If you have little or no experience with religious practice and only know it by books, does it exlude you from discussion or debate with one who practice? No

RF is an open place to hold discussion . It does not say a believer can not debate just because he or she has personal experience.

Great so you do want to debate. What is one thing you can tell me that is based on evidence that more than one person can evaluate that is true.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Great so you do want to debate. What is one thing you can tell me that is based on evidence that more than one person can evaluate that is true.

If you read the quran and sufi teaching you will understand what I believe in.
Sufism is a personal path, where each sufi will gain somewhat different understanding from his or her practice. The path is inward toward the spiritual heart.

 

[infrabenji]

If you read the quran and sufi teaching you will understand what I believe in.
Sufism is a personal path, where each sufi will gain somewhat different understanding from his or her practice. The path is inward toward the spiritual heart.

I have read the quran 3 versions of it. I don't find old scripture books especially the quran to be compelling evidence for the existence of god or that belief is warranted because of it in any way. Personal paths is the easy way to deflect from having any responsibility to show evidence as to the truth of ones beliefs and not surprisingly is usually accompanied with an argument from personal experience which has been shown to be useless. Doesn't it bother you that you can't demonstrate that your own beliefs are real except in your head? That others that follow your religion engage in the same practice? Not a single one able to meet the criteria for the burden of proof. Is most of your religion people who were raised that way? Or is your religion geographically condensed into one area. Looks like mostly Africa. As to your claim of a spiritual heart. What is a spiritual heart? And can it be shown to exist?

 

[Heyo]

So it is perfectly fine for a person to identify as an atheist, with the idea that they see no evidence for a god and that it led them to hold that position. Even if they admit that such knowledge about God existences is not certain. That doesn't change the fact, that we see no evidence for one.

Yes, it is OK to identify as an atheist, I am one (by definition). But identifying as Agnostic is better. If you are of a different opinion I extend my offer to debate to you also. (Iow: not here, that would be off topic.)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

First things first. Withou God being defined, this can not go anywhere

That would be hard...if is a deity.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Are you looking for objective, as in the public arena, evidence that God exists as opposed to subjective evidence which is inside each person? I believe that if I tried to present objective evidence of God only I would not convince you. I believe in God both on the basis of objective and subjective evidence. If you want only objective evidence I would have to bow out. All of the atheists I have encountered want objective evidence only, as in the public arena.

Part of subjective evidence is does it appear to you that the Writings of my Faith appear reasonable to you, which does have a subjective basis. Do the Writings inspire you? From what you can determine from the life of the Bab, Baha'u'llah, and Abdu'l-Baha did they live holy lives? Of course you would have to investigate the above not just here from what I present you. My opinion on any of this should be taken with a grain of salt.

Briefly what was the objective evidence?

If it were wouldn't everyone be able to know this regardless their background, beliefs, academic from layman to scientist observe and study thus god?

Genuienly saying it would make headlines, no?

 

[Nimos]

Yes, it is OK to identify as an atheist, I am one (by definition). But identifying as Agnostic is better. If you are of a different opinion I extend my offer to debate to you also. (Iow: not here, that would be off topic.)

Its not really a huge interest of mine to debate, to be honest.

You might check this chart and see if you agree or not:

Agnostic vs Atheist - Difference and Comparison | Diffen

 

[Deeje]

Honestly, my studies in religion have led me to lean more towards religion being a man made construct.

I agree, because most of them are.....and some are the product of pure human fantasy......but if there was a Creator God whose power is amply demonstrated in creation, then wouldn't its existence alone be proof enough, based on the law of cause and effect? Nothing comes from nothing......so what was before the Big Bang? Where else could a universe come from.....equipped with immutable laws that are so incredibly precise, you can pinpoint where a heavenly body will be in a thousand years from now?
How could these laws create themselves? These are the things that I considered myself when looking for answers.

And when it comes to the designs we see in nature, mirroring the things in the universe like these.....
Can you not see the same creative hand at work?

There is a sacred geometry seen in the heavens and on earth.....could that be just a series of fortunate coincidences? I could not see how that was possible.

I love what science tells me about God.....but everything in me balks when science tries to eliminate him.

Just the quality of evidence alone for any god or gods to exist should give anyone pause. Pause and then robust but thoughtful debate to test and test again the validity of the information new and old.

Can you demonstrate what 'quality of evidence' gives you pause....?..just so I understand what you mean?

And what it is that you find hard to believe about God? Perhaps there is another avenue of thought, not yet explored?

 

[Colt]

Critical thinking and skepticism. I'm not afraid to say "I don't know" when sufficient evidence has not been furnished to warrant a belief. Also, I'm not afraid of being wrong. So I decided to go online and test the truth of my beliefs. I imagine there will be a lot of I don't knows on my part. I don't believe in absolute certainty so the sky's the limit. Looking forward to a debate. Thanks for the question. I hope I answered it sufficiently.

Oh, you have a monopoly on reality as the basis for all logic? That's rich!

For starters, skepticism is proof that the universe is not entirely mechanical. But God is so obvious its blinding. A finite can neither prove nor disprove infinite God. But God is experienceable as a subjective reality for those who truly want to know him.

"Physical stability associated with biologic elasticity is present in nature only because of the well-nigh infinite wisdom possessed by the Master Architects of creation. Nothing less than transcendental wisdom could ever design units of matter which are at the same time so stable and so efficiently flexible." Urantia Book

 

[viole]

I have to ask what your study of "religion" gave you?....as well as how well your study of "theology" actually included the Bible....the whole Bible, not just the verses that seem to support a certain belief? And how philosophy and its influence entered into the picture.

I would say that studying theology is the fastest way to become atheist.

Ciao

- viole