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Featured Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by infrabenji, Jul 15, 2021.

  1. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

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    So your argument is basically, "If you agree with me, then you'll agree with me."

    Genius.

    There's a lot about religious belief that makes no sense to me. So I have no idea.

    Yes I have. I've been explaining it for ages.

    But here's the problem I have...

    If there are facts A, B and C about your religion (facts that I won't argue with, like Mr B was a real person, he actually wrote the stuff, etc), then that's fine.

    But you have reached the conclusion, "If A, B and C are correct, then claims D, E and F are also correct, even though there's no way to demonstrate that those are facts."

    Your conclusion about D, E and F is unjustified.

    And I could just as easily say that your "analysis" is just opinion as well.

    Remember, the belief you hold so important is just another superstition to people who don't share your beliefs. So don't expect me to find it as convincing as you do when all you can do is offer your opinion about it.

    Irrelevant. In both cases, one thing is being referred to in two different ways. You can not escape that point.

    Please pay attention.

    I'm not saying Jesus became God.

    I'm saying that (according to the Bible) God became Jesus.

    Big difference there.

    Other way around! The Bible doesn't say Jesus appeared as God, it says God appeared as Jesus!

    Irrelevant to what I said.

    So?

    You've cited plenty of passages from the Bible to support your beliefs. In post 963, you cited 1 Timothy 3:16 to support your belief that Jesus was infallible because he was a manifestation of God. Behold!

     
  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I was just joking, didn't you see the :D? There is no chance that the Baha'i Faith is not true, it is logically impossible.
    The reason I would want to be an atheist is so I could drop God off at the nearest bus depot.
    All I have is work to do for this God, and meanwhile life is getting away from me.
    On the other hand, I would never want to be anything but a Baha'i and I would never want to drop God off, so when you said I sound confused you were right, although I am not really confused, I am conflicted, and that is because of my personality type, it has nothing to do with God or religion.

    But you might have a point about becoming a Christian, I would not have the work that Baha'is have to do because I would be 'saved and forgiven' without having to do anything... Sounds nice, but unfortunately is a false Christian doctrine. Were I to become a Christian I would not believe in any Christian doctrines, only in Jesus, but I already believe in Jesus as a Baha'i, so what would be the point? I can't get out of this work unless I become an atheist. :(
    I am not at a cross with Christians as I believe in the cross and that Jesus died for the sins and inequities of humanity. I am only at a cross with the Christian doctrines which I consider false: The False Prophets

    There are a lot of "Additional Truths" in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism and other religions.
     
    #1002 Trailblazer, Aug 8, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2021
  3. WonderingWorrier

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    Because Baha'u'llah has his way with words.

    As he says:

    "I am the One Whom the tongue of Isaiah hath extolled, the One with Whose name both the Torah and the Evangel were adorned. Thus hath it been decreed in the Scriptures of thy Lord, the Most Merciful. He, verily, hath borne witness unto Me, as I bear witness unto Him. And God testifieth to the truth of My words".
    The summons of the lord of hosts.


    So where is the truth of his words?


    "O thou who hast quaffed the wine of Mine utterance from the chalice of My knowledge".

    "Increase, then, by the oil of Thy wisdom, the radiance of its light".

    "The seas of Divine wisdom and Divine utterance have risen under the breath of the breeze of the All-Merciful".

    Through Him the ocean of knowledge hath surged amidst mankind and the river of divine wisdom hath gushed out at the behest of God, the Lord of Days.



    Baha'u'llah speaks hollow words. There is nothing in them.
    Some people are very good at sounding like they know something when they don't actually know.



    The words of Baha'ullah do not have the detail that other messengers have.
    He does not weave his words into the one message.



    Because I do think the message is hidden, but it is also plain to see.


    Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, saith the Lord God. Ezekiel 32:14

    That is detail. And it is woven into the message. Because the river is oil.


    Sea - River - Stream
    Corn - Oil - Wine


    So could someone ever hear (the difference between) the corn, the wine, and the oil, by listening to the words of Baha'u'llah?

    And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. Hosea 2:22
     
  4. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Yet, Christianity has "false" doctrines? Whether what Baha'u'llah wrote is perfect or not, still... those who become Baha'is are not perfect. They can screw up the religion. And I'm sure many people in LSA's and NSA's have made bad decisions and abused their power. And here's one...
    We deeply regret the necessity of informing you that James F. Nelson has been guilty of gross negligence in the performance of his duties as a member of the National Spiritual Assembly...
    My take is that for years there has been rivalries and factions on the NSA, especially between the West Coast Gang led by the Nelsons (with Bill Davis and Juana Conrad) vs. the Henderson/Kazemzadeh block. I have heard that in their rebuke to Nelson the NSA refered to his "careless" behavior, while in the letter to the delegates they refer to "gross negligence in the performance of duties." My view is that if the NSA was sincere in their concern for Nelson and his spiritual growth, they would have simply accepted his resignation and informed the delegates that after years of service, Judge Nelson has resigned for health or personal reasons. The letter to the delegates seems to me to be a blatant campaign maneuver. It seems aimed at (1) publicly humiliating Jim Nelson and (2) helping guide the delegates in their voting for a candidate from the Henderson/Kazemzadeh Good Old Boys Network rather than from the now suspect Nelson Network.

    As someone who has dealt with Henderson and Kazemzadeh in the past and had them use lies and slander in their attacks on my beliefs and behavior, this latest outburst is not at all surprising and fits their modus operandi perfectly. That is to say, the timing and the pure sleeziness of this blatant political manuvering fits with their history of self-promotion combined with vicious personal attacks against those who might threaten their grip of power over the American Baha'i community... (This was from Steven Scholl. The next part is from Juan Cole)

    Actually, early twentieth century Baha'is under `Abdu'l-Baha had perfectly democratic elections, and were instructed to do it that way by `Abdu'l-Baha. During WW I when there was conflict over whether to support the war effort or adopt a pacifist stance, hawks like Mason Remey organized a campaign for the NSA in 1917 in which they captured it and reversed the previous pacifist policy! Older Baha'is spoke of the times when Republican and Democratic Baha'is wouldn't speak with one another.
    The problem with the current situation is not merely that the voting records of the NSA members are completely unknown. It is that the activities and policies of the NSA as a whole are almost completely unknown! What exactly do these people do? What policies have they made? What effect have the policies had? Have they been good for the growth of the community, numerically and spiritually? Without knowing the answer to this question, how can the delegates even begin to vote intelligently? Though, as we have seen, the very rules of the elections leave them with little potential impact.

    We know that there were about 48,000 adult Baha'is with good addresses in the US in 1978. There are now about 60,000. In the meantime 12,000 Iranians immigrated. This means that there has been no growth in over twenty years. *None*. Of course, hundreds if not a few thousands of people have come in during the past two decades, but enormous numbers of them have gone right back out. Would any CEO who had not increased his earnings a single penny over twenty years be reappointed by the board?

    The exclusivistic policies of Mr. Henderson, who is frankly mean-spirited, have contributed enormously to this Great Stagnation. He was the one who cracked down on Dialogue magazine in such a nasty way. He bullied Baha'i travel agents in 1991, for the Lord knows what reward from the corrupt Corporate Travel Consultants. He agitated behind the scenes for a crackdown on [email protected]. He has chased travel teachers out of the country, seeing them as an electoral threat should they become successful. I have no idea about the propriety of Jim Nelson's book-keeping practices, but surely for Henderson to publicly smear him after Jim served on the NSA 1971-1999, in circumstances where Nelson cannot even publicly defend himself, is the height of sleaze. Henderson has arranged for himself to live rent free free in a 9-bedroom mansion (having the Bourgeois studio knocked down to build it, against UHJ instructions) with free Baha'i maids and gardeners, and his main business seems to be bullying Baha'is into silence behind the scenes. And I fully acknowledge that he is probably acting rationally given the way the Baha'i system is structured.

    So, I think all these things are related: the fact that the Baha'i faith in the US has been going nowhere fast for decades; the fact that the electoral system seems to elect the ambitious and greedy (and paranoid) to the top offices; the fact that even initially upright people are made perpetual incumbents, exposing them to the temptations of absolute power held for decades and corrupting them; the fact that the electoral system provides an incentive for the incumbents to slap down and chase out potential competitors; the fact that it would not be in the incumbents' interest for the faith to expand, become more open, attract a lot of new voters who might rock the boat.
    I remember all of these people. I heard most all of them speak at Baha'i Conferences. They were all very well-known and respected Baha'is. But... they are only people.



     
  5. WonderingWorrier

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    Religion:
    The Wheel.
    The message of the Rig Veda.

    "Twelve are the fellies, and the wheel is single; three are the naves. What man hath understood it?"


    The message from the God of the Maori people.
    Known as the hidden God, the secret God.
    The God who made 12 heavens.
    The creator God named Io.

    I think the message of the heavens is the Zodiac wheel.
    And the messengers speak the Zodiac wheel language. Its all in the details.
    Weaving their words into the wheel.


    The message is being broadcasted to children all over the world in the form of myths and fairytales.
     
  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Have you ever considered that is only from your perspective? We all see things differently. I see no hollow words.
    I do not see it that way. I see the Bible and even the Qur'an as a bunch of mixed and conflicting messages, impossible to decipher.

    Aside form that, I believe the message Baha'u'llah brought is the message humanity needs in this age whereas the messages of the previous Messengers are not suited for this age. The spiritual messages of the previous Messengers are timeless, but the other teachings are not what humanity needs in this age. I think about what all of humanity needs, not what I like.
     
  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    How is this message going to help the suffering of humanity?
     
  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Of course the Baha'is are not perfect, no humans are perfect, but that is no way to judge a religion, because people will always fall short of the teachings. I do not care what the other Baha'is do, I only care about what I do and how I treat other people.

    Also, to pick out instances of bad behavior on the part of a few Baha'is and and not look at the Baha'is as a whole group is going to lead to false conclusions.

    Regarding the character of some Baha'is and the triumph of this Cause, it is important to note what the Guardian said:

    “Not by the force of numbers, not by the mere exposition of a set of new and noble principles, not by an organized campaign of teaching—no matter how worldwide and elaborate in its character—not even by the staunchness of our faith or the exaltation of our enthusiasm, can we ultimately hope to vindicate in the eyes of a critical and sceptical age the supreme claim of the Abhá Revelation. One thing and only one thing will unfailingly and alone secure the undoubted triumph of this sacred Cause, namely, the extent to which our own inner life and private character mirror forth in their manifold aspects the splendor of those eternal principles proclaimed by Bahá’u’lláh.” Bahá’í Administration, p. 66
     
    #1008 Trailblazer, Aug 8, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2021
  9. samtonga43

    samtonga43 Active Member

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    No need to be rude.
    My evidence is the witness of the Holy Spirit.
     
  10. WonderingWorrier

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    Yes I have. Like I said, some people are very good at it. Speaking words that can mean anything you want it to mean so you think you have been given an answer.

    So what is your perspective of Baha'u'llahs words about the corn, the oil, and the wine?



    Like I said in an earlier post on this thread.

    Moses separated the Sea
    Muhammad separated the Moon.
    And Jesus picked the corn.
    Same thing.

    Corn - Oil - Wine
    Sea - River - Stream
    Moon - Star - Sun
    Cattle - Goats - Sheep
    Valley - Hill - Mountain


    And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. Mark 2:23

    For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? 1 Corinthians 9:9




    Did Baha'u'llah show you how to recognise this Quran verse:

    And the mountains will be like wool. Quran 70:9


    Baha'u'llah says:
    "Will ye not recognize how the mountains have become like flocks of wool, how the people are sore vexed at the awful majesty of the Cause of God?".

    That is not an answer. It doesn't say anything.

    Take another look at the word order placement I did.

    Can you see the mountains are like Wool?

    Corn - Oil - Wine
    Sea - River - Stream
    Moon - Star - Sun
    Cattle - Goats - Sheep
    Valley - Hill - Mountain



    Can you also see the valley filled with corn?

    The pastures are clothed with flocks; the valleys also are covered over with corn; they shout for joy, they also sing. Psalm 65:13


    God has given us the corn:

    Yea, the Lord will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen: Joel 2:19



    So what does Baha'u'llah know about corn?
     
  11. samtonga43

    samtonga43 Active Member

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    Maybe this is the case from your perspective, but not necessarily for others. Has this crossed your mind?
    Work? What kind of work?
    I also don't understand how you can separate love for God from 'life'.
    I'm sorry you're feeling this way. You actually sound quite confused. Have you thought about more quiet time for prayer and meditation?
    Can you say some more about these 'additional truths'?

    Take care of yourself.
     
  12. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Well-Known Member

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    Selective quoting, for sure.
     
  13. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry about the rudeness. How does the Holy Spirit reach you? Is it a voice? Is it a feeling? How do you know it is the Holy Spirit? I've always been curious about how Christians perceive they've been communicated to by the Holy Spirit.

    I my self have experienced the Holy Spirit, and it is not a voice in my experience. It has been a very strong experience at times. Of course that is just between me and God, I don't expect you to believe me. The Holy Spirit is not evidence for anyone else.

    Is there any other evidence besides that as well? I'm not asking it you to prove it to me. I already believe.

    The reason I originally asked these questions is to demonstrate to you that it is not so easy to prove to someone else who doesn't believe in your Prophet that He is genuine. So far I've got nothing concrete from you that would prove Jesus is who you say to some who is not already a believer.

    I didn't mean to be so abrupt and rude. I should have explained this before now.
     
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  14. WonderingWorrier

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  15. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Who was rude?
     
  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Of course, constantly. I know only Baha'is would see it from my perspective.
    Answering posts on this forum
    Who said anything about loving God? What's to love, all the suffering I have endured because it was "the will of God"?
    I don't have to love God to serve God.
    I have no interest in prayer or meditation but I am going to a counselor to help me sort things out.
    Where would I even start? All these religions are true religions.
     
  17. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Hilarious, absolutely funny. A Bahai asking a Christian for evidence. :D :D Can't stop.
    Parrot? Ask Trailblazer. :D :D
    Paid or free? ;)
    Forget about other religions. Tell me the "additional truths" that Bahai religion has? That is what I am asking for, just two or three, or even one. But strangely, you seem to be hesitant in spelling it out. This is the third time I am asking you for it. Why?
     
    #1017 Aupmanyav, Aug 8, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2021
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  18. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    The writings of men.versus science.

    As the basis science is a man by men agreed symbolic language taught and accepted that was not owned by creation. It was expressed only by man.

    It was spoken by men.

    Consciousness human survival is spiritual innate and natural.

    Machines transmit encoded record and involve recordings of sounds voice and any image.

    A program.

    Consciousness not a program it is an experience involving natural mutual relationships.

    Human brain changes by irradiation inherited increased conditions status of heard recorded voices of men or women speaking advice.

    Another language. Neither natural nor of science. A causation.

    Why basic themes creation and science is expressed in the human heard speaking medium.

    Earths atmosphere hence became human man science machine encoded and he has been in coordinated heavenly conditions of effects of change.

    Just as a higher man in spirituality who caused to be affected to quote via science a human design caused life to be made aware. Via body changes.

    Yet we are all only first just a human.

    Humans own good mutual ideas for humans versus those who introduced very bad human choices.

    Hence a very good person can be atmospheric harmed. Without due cause. Then write about the experience wanting family to realise no human was God.

    Because of all statuses humans inherited by self destructive choice to change what supported life in its created highest evolution.

    The argument. God was always life support the highest became now cooling evolution owned the highest support.

    Same advice.
    Because of choices science satanic choices in the past pyramid science.
     
  19. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I cannot say that I ever paid any attention to these words.
    Corn - Oil - Wine
    Sea - River - Stream
    Moon - Star - Sun
    Cattle - Goats - Sheep
    Valley - Hill - Mountain

    I cannot understand why any of this matters.
    Again, I cannot understand why any of this matters.
    Again, I cannot understand why any of this matters. How is this going to change the suffering of humanity?

    “The vitality of men’s belief in God is dying out in every land; nothing short of His wholesome medicine can ever restore it. The corrosion of ungodliness is eating into the vitals of human society; what else but the Elixir of His potent Revelation can cleanse and revive it? Is it within human power, O Hakím, to effect in the constituent elements of any of the minute and indivisible particles of matter so complete a transformation as to transmute it into purest gold? Perplexing and difficult as this may appear, the still greater task of converting satanic strength into heavenly power is one that We have been empowered to accomplish. The Force capable of such a transformation transcendeth the potency of the Elixir itself. The Word of God, alone, can claim the distinction of being endowed with the capacity required for so great and far-reaching a change.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 200
     
  20. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Free.
    Additional to what? You have to spell out your question.
     
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