Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Trailblazer]

You literally said, "I believe that everyone has been given what they need."

Now you tell me that when you said everyone has been given what they need, you didn't mean that everyone has been given what they need.

I already explained what I meant by that, I said all humans have the capacity to believe in God, and this is belief is based upon what Baha'u'llah wrote about capacity:

“I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

“He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings, pp. 105-106

But if you do not utilize your capacity how can you expect to believe in God? That would be like buying a new car that has the capacity to get you across the country, yet you never take it out of the garage.

I believe everyone has been given what they need to believe in God, but what they have been given is not necessarily what they want, so they thumb their noses at what God provided, the Messengers.

If you lack the fitness, endurance, stamina, etc, then no, you Don't have the capacity to run a marathon. You're going to be a lot clearer here, because as it is, your claim is very vague. What could prevent you from running a marathon if you have the capacity to run a marathon?

Lots of things could prevent me from running it. For example, I might have other things I would rather do or I might just be lazy or I might lack the motivation. I know I could run a marathon even at my age if I only had the time, but I consider other things more important.

If they can't use that capacity, does that mean they don't have the capacity to use the capacity to believe? How many iterations are you going to invoke? Are you going to say that some people have the capacity to use the capacity, but don't have the capacity to use the capacity to use the capacity?

No, it does not mean they don't have the capacity. It mean they might have other things they would rather do or they might just be lazy or they might lack the motivation. Everything that is really worthwhile in this life requires that we put forth some effort, no pain no gain. I did not get a bunch of college degrees by sitting around watching TV, I had to work hard for a long time and put forth a sustained effort. Parents who raise children also have to put in a lot of effort. Why should belief in God be any different?

“The incomparable Creator hath created all men from one same substance, and hath exalted their reality above the rest of His creatures. Success or failure, gain or loss, must, therefore, depend upon man’s own exertions. The more he striveth, the greater will be his progress.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 81-82

“Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.”” Gleanings, pp. 266-267

 

[Trailblazer]

Tell me again that you don't cherry pick.

I said: The facts about the religion are evidence for the truth of the religion if those facts indicate that the religion is true.

How the hell is this cherry-picking? Am I supposed to look at the facts about Christianity as evidence for the truth of the Baha'i Faith? I think you need a logic course.

 

[Trailblazer]

Doesn't your own faith contradict parts of other faiths?

No.

Unless you are saying that ALL of Christianity is true, then Ba'hai is contradicting Christianity.

No, that is not true. I do not have to believe that the false doctrines of the Church such as Jesus is God and original sin or even that Jesus literally rose from the dead, are true in order to believe that Christianity is true. Whether I believe these is all a matter of what I interpret the Bible to mean and not even all Christians interpret the Bible to mean the same things. It is the all-or-nothing fallacy to say I have to believe everything that Christianity teaches in order for the Baha'i Faith to NOT contradict Christianity.

Any of the ones that you disagree with. Take your pick.

I said: Please show me which Bible verses I ignored because they do not support my faith.

Apparently you cannot show me any so instead you obfuscate and deflect.
Which Bible verses do you think I disagree with?

 

[Trailblazer]

@ Tiberius

"The facts about the religion are evidence for the truth of the religion if those facts indicate that the religion is true".

Talk about circular reasoning!!

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Someone on this forum does not know anything about logic.

So you think that is a Winner huh?
Please explain why what I said about FACTS is circular reasoning.

Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving"; also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.[1] The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Circular reasoning - Wikipedia

The FACTS about a religion are not "beginning with what one wants to end with" -- there is no relationship whatsoever between using FACTS to show a religion is true and circular reasoning.

It is not circular reasoning to want FACTS that show that a religion is true and that is exactly what people look for if they want to know if a religion is true. That's called research, ever heard of it?

In fact, FACTS are what atheists have been asking me for for eight years, and that is exactly what I have -- FACTS.

Christians do not have any facts, all they have are beliefs, but Baha'is have facts.

On Adrian's thread How important are facts within your religious beliefs? I explained why I chose the Baha'i Faith.

adrian009 said:
Does historical fact matter or should religious myth be accorded the same status as fact? We’re discussing religion after all. How important are facts to you within your religious belief or worldview? Does it really matter? Why or why not?

Facts are more important to me than anything else, and that is why I became a Baha'i in the first place. The first thing I did when I heard of Baha'u'llah back in 1970 was look in the Encyclopedia Britannica to find out of Baha'u'llah was a real person. After that I read whatever books had been published about the Baha’i Faith at that time and I read the Writings of Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha, but what really convinced me that the Baha'i Faith was true was Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era because there were a lot of facts in there.

Emotions can be very misleading so I rely upon facts. As I always tell people, I never had any mushy-gushy feelings towards God or Baha'u'llah; I just know that the Baha'i Faith is the truth from God for this age because of the facts surrounding the life and mission of Baha'u'llah and because the theology is logical.

It was only 43 years after I had become a Baha'i that I connected with the Writings of Baha'u'llah on both an intellectual and an emotional level when I read Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh for the first time with serious intent, and that is when I realized without a doubt that Baha'u'llah was speaking for God. My life has never been the same since. Before that I had believed in God and I knew Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God; after that I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that God existed and Baha'u'llah was His Representative for this age.

 

[Trailblazer]

So, why are you calling it 'sadness' given that the word doesn't correspond to what we interpret as sadness? It's like saying "Person X bought a new chair.. but his "chair" isn't what we call 'chairs'.. it is different." It doesn't even make sense to say God "cares" about humans if his "caring" is (perhaps totally) different from the father's in my previous example. It loses all its meaning.

God can care and be sad in a His own way, in a way humans cannot comprehend.

Why would God's kind of sadness have to correspond with human sadness? As i said before, God might feel something like sadness but God's sadness is no more like human sadness than God's love is like human love, because as I said before, God is not a human. We cannot know what God's sadness feels like, only God knows that.

What I mean by sadness hurting God is very simple. It means the feeling has the potential to negatively affect God, and as a consequence He has the inclination to avoid it.

Your comment was that rejecting His Message doesn't hurt God. I'm asking if the feeling of sadness doesn't hurt God. If not, then why would He want to avoid it by sending messengers?

To clarify, I guess you meant "If the feeling of sadness does not hurt God why would God want to avoid feeling sad when He sends Messengers and most people reject His Messengers?"

God is not a human so God does not think or behave like a human. God does not say to Himself "Gee I might feel sad if people reject my Messenger so I guess I won't send my Messenger." God simply does what is best for humans, period. God does not need anything in return because God has no needs.

Remember...

“Your Lord, the God of mercy, can well dispense with all creatures. Nothing whatever can either increase or diminish the things He doth possess. If ye believe, to your own behoof will ye believe; and if ye believe not, ye yourselves will suffer.” Gleanings, p. 148

“The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.” Gleanings, p. 260

 

[Trailblazer]

And that is exactly why I think that if your god exists, it is not just and fair. What you've said is that god deliberately allows people to come to harm by not making itself clear and obvious and it doesn't even care because they're the ones that get hurt, not god.

No, God does not deliberately allows people to come to harm by not directly communicating to each individual because communicating directly to each individual is not the appropriate way fro God to communicate to humans since no ordinary humans could ever understand God if God communicated to them directly. That is one reason God communicates to Messengers who have the ability to understand God and the ability to relay what God communicates to them back to humans. In so doing the Messengers act as intermediaries between God and ordinary humans.

God is not unjust or unfair because Humans have free will so they have a choice to either accept or reject the Messengers, and that choice has its own consequences just as all choices we make in life have consequences.

It's rather like if you have an dangerous cliff path, or a beach that often has sharks nearby, a chemically contaminated park or something and instead of putting up a big notice informing people of the dangers at the appropriate site, you just put a book in the library, that has the information in it and then blame anybody who gets harmed for not going to the library and looking though it just in case there was a book with important warnings in it. Worse even than that, it's like putting the warning book in the "myths and legends" section.

Who said anything about any dangers or any harm? The only consequence of not believing is not getting the reward you could have has as a believer. People punish themselves by rejecting God's Messengers.

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings, p. 339

If you want the reward you have to work for the reward just like anything else you do in life for which you want to be rewarded. Why should God prove to you that He exists just so you won't have to do any work and prove that to yourself? God has never operated that way and never will.

 

[Magical Wand]

God can care and be sad in a His own way, in a way humans cannot comprehend. Why would God's kind of sadness have to correspond with human sadness? As i said before, God might feel something like sadness but God's sadness is no more like human sadness than God's love is like human love, because as I said before, God is not a human. We cannot know what God's sadness feels like, only God knows that. ... God is not a human so God does not think or behave like a human. God does not say to Himself "Gee I might feel sad if people reject my Messenger so I guess I won't send my Messenger." God simply does what is best for humans, period. God does not need anything in return because God has no needs.

So, let me see if I understand your view. God "cares" for humans (in a way that doesn't correspond to human caring in any conceivable way), and He feels "sadness" (in a way that doesn't correspond to any conceivable human feeling of sadness, i.e., a bad feeling), and He has the inclination to send Messengers, even though it will make no difference to Him given that sadness won't affect Him in any possible way since "God has no [psychological] needs." Is that correct?

Isn't your God like a robot? It has the inclination to act according to its nature, but the results make no difference to it. It doesn't care (the way humans care), and doesn't feel (the way humans feel). The robot might well "feel" something in a way we humans don't understand; after all, the meaning of "feel" becomes totally disconnected from human reality. I'm glad I don't believe in your God since it is incoherent or almost entirely like a robot.

 

[Trailblazer]

So, let me see if I understand your view. God "cares" for humans (in a way that doesn't correspond to human caring in any conceivable way), and He feels "sadness" (in a way that doesn't correspond to any conceivable human feeling of sadness, i.e., a bad feeling), and He has the inclination to send Messengers, even though it will make no difference to Him given that sadness won't affect Him in any possible way since "God has no [psychological] needs." Is that correct?

Not exactly. God is not devoid of feelings, and God's feelings could correspond somewhat to human feelings; we just cannot know how God thinks and feels, and that was my point.

I think you should read about the Baha'i view of God, as Wikipedia does a pretty good job of explaining it.

God in the Baháʼí Faith

Isn't your God like a robot? It has the inclination to act according to its nature, but the results make no difference to it. It doesn't care (the way humans care), and doesn't feel (the way humans feel). The robot might well "feel" something in a way we humans don't understand; after all, the meaning of "feel" becomes totally disconnected from human reality. I'm glad I don't believe in your God since it is incoherent or almost entirely like a robot.

No, God is not a robot at all, in my view. That Wikipedia page above explains that. God does care and does feel and is very much connected with the human reality. My point was only that God is beyond human understanding and not like a human.

I am sorry I misrepresented God and I think it is because I am somewhat biased because I have been remote from God for personal reasons, but Baha'is do not believe that God is remote and devoid of feelings. Now I feel obligated to try to counterbalance what I said. Clearly, God loves us and wants nothing but our hearts, which signifies our love.

3: O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.

4: O SON OF MAN! I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

59: O SON OF BEING! Thy heart is My home; sanctify it for My descent. Thy spirit is My place of revelation; cleanse it for My manifestation.The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 17

"Consider, moreover, how frequently doth man become forgetful of his own self, whilst God remaineth, through His all-encompassing knowledge, aware of His creature, and continueth to shed upon him the manifest radiance of His glory. It is evident, therefore, that, in such circumstances, He is closer to him than his own self. He will, indeed, so remain for ever, for, whereas the one true God knoweth all things, perceiveth all things, and comprehendeth all things, mortal man is prone to err, and is ignorant of the mysteries that lie enfolded within him….” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 185-186

“That the heart is the throne, in which the Revelation of God the All-Merciful is centered, is attested by the holy utterances which We have formerly revealed......
Among them is this saying: “Earth and heaven cannot contain Me; what can alone contain Me is the heart of him that believeth in Me, and is faithful to My Cause.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 186

“Dispute not with any one concerning the things of this world and its affairs, for God hath abandoned them to such as have set their affection upon them. Out of the whole world He hath chosen for Himself the hearts of men—hearts which the hosts of revelation and of utterance can subdue. Thus hath it been ordained by the Fingers of Bahá, upon the Tablet of God’s irrevocable decree, by the behest of Him Who is the Supreme Ordainer, the All-Knowing.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 279

 

[samtonga43]

"The facts about the religion are evidence for the truth of the religion if those facts indicate that the religion is true".
Talk about circular reasoning!!
Someone on this forum does not know anything about logic.
So you think that is a Winner huh?
Please explain why what I said about FACTS is circular reasoning

Certainly:--
The facts indicate that the religion is true.
Therefore
These facts are evidence of the truth of the religion.

Do you understand?

 

[Tiberius]

I already explained what I meant by that, I said all humans have the capacity to believe in God, and this is belief is based upon what Baha'u'llah wrote about capacity:

“I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

“He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings, pp. 105-106

But if you do not utilize your capacity how can you expect to believe in God? That would be like buying a new car that has the capacity to get you across the country, yet you never take it out of the garage.

I believe everyone has been given what they need to believe in God, but what they have been given is not necessarily what they want, so they thumb their noses at what God provided, the Messengers.

Actually, that would be like you claiming that you'd left a car in my garage, but then me saying that there was no car.

Lots of things could prevent me from running it. For example, I might have other things I would rather do or I might just be lazy or I might lack the motivation. I know I could run a marathon even at my age if I only had the time, but I consider other things more important.

So you are using your capacity for other things and thus can't use that capacity for running the maratyhon. So you don't have any capacity for running the marathon.

No, it does not mean they don't have the capacity. It mean they might have other things they would rather do or they might just be lazy or they might lack the motivation. Everything that is really worthwhile in this life requires that we put forth some effort, no pain no gain. I did not get a bunch of college degrees by sitting around watching TV, I had to work hard for a long time and put forth a sustained effort. Parents who raise children also have to put in a lot of effort. Why should belief in God be any different?

“The incomparable Creator hath created all men from one same substance, and hath exalted their reality above the rest of His creatures. Success or failure, gain or loss, must, therefore, depend upon man’s own exertions. The more he striveth, the greater will be his progress.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 81-82

“Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.”” Gleanings, pp. 266-267

Then they don't have everything they need, despite your claims that they did. They don't have the motivation they need. They don't have the time they need.

 

[Tiberius]

I said: The facts about the religion are evidence for the truth of the religion if those facts indicate that the religion is true.

How the hell is this cherry-picking? Am I supposed to look at the facts about Christianity as evidence for the truth of the Baha'i Faith? I think you need a logic course.

It is cherry picking because you are literally telling us that you decide if the evidence is correct based on what it says. If it says what you want it to say, then it is true. If it says what you Don't want it to say, then it is not true.

How any rational person can think this is even a remotely valid way of finding the truth is beyond me.

 

[Tiberius]

No.

Sure seems like it to me. Of course, you go through all of these mental gymnastics to come up with reasons why you think they aren't contradictory.

No, that is not true. I do not have to believe that the false doctrines of the Church such as Jesus is God and original sin or even that Jesus literally rose from the dead, are true in order to believe that Christianity is true. Whether I believe these is all a matter of what I interpret the Bible to mean and not even all Christians interpret the Bible to mean the same things. It is the all-or-nothing fallacy to say I have to believe everything that Christianity teaches in order for the Baha'i Faith to NOT contradict Christianity.

So you pick and choose the parts of the Bible you claim are valid, and then discard the parts that you think are invalid, just so you can say that Mr B wasn't contradicting any part of Chrsitianity. After all, you have to explain why you aren't a Christian if Bahai is completely in agreement with Christianity, so you instead interpret it to be, "Bahai is in agreement with what I consider to be the valid parts of Christianity" and leave nit at that.

I said:

Please show me which Bible verses I ignored because they do not support my faith.

Apparently you cannot show me any so instead you obfuscate and deflect.
Which Bible verses do you think I disagree with?

How about the passages that say Jesus is God, there is original sin, or that Jesus rose from the dead? You literally just said you believe those are false doctrines. I trust you don't need me to spell out actual passages from the Bible for you.

 

[ratiocinator]

No, God does not deliberately allows people to come to harm by not directly communicating to each individual because communicating directly to each individual is not the appropriate way fro God to communicate to humans since no ordinary humans could ever understand God if God communicated to them directly.

We're going round in circles, either it could communicate with everybody (in some way) or it isn't omnipotent.

That is one reason God communicates to Messengers who have the ability to understand God...

Why didn't god make everybody with that ability?

God is not unjust or unfair because Humans have free will so they have a choice to either accept or reject the Messengers, and that choice has its own consequences just as all choices we make in life have consequences.

Since there is no rational reason, that I'm aware of, to take the notion of these messengers seriously, your god seems to dislike rational people.

Who said anything about any dangers or any harm?

You did: "so if people do not recognize the Messengers and believe in God it won't hurt God, it only hurts those people." (#806).

If you want the reward you have to work for the reward just like anything else you do in life for which you want to be rewarded. Why should God deliver prove to you that He exists just so you won't have to do any work and prove that to yourself?

We're going round in circles again, I see no reason to even think there is a reward, so why would I work towards it? If god gave a clear message that set out some work for us to do to get a reward, this may make some sense, but there simply isn't (and please don't say again that I can read about the Baha'i faith online because that's just another religion to me, with no reason given to take it seriously). Hiding it's actual existence and the fact that we're supposed to look is just daft, as well as unfair.

 

[Trailblazer]

Certainly:--
The facts indicate that the religion is true.
Therefore
These facts are evidence of the truth of the religion.

Do you understand?

Yes, I do understand.

 

[Secret Chief]

No.

In my understanding, the fundamental tenets of Buddhism are as different from Bahai as it is possible to be.

 

[samtonga43]

Yes, I do understand.

Great!

 

[Trailblazer]

In my understanding, the fundamental tenets of Buddhism are as different from Bahai as it is possible to be.

Tiberius said: Doesn't your own faith contradict parts of other faiths?

Trailblazer said: No.

I answered no because I do not think my beliefs contradict other faiths but rather they are different from the beliefs of other faiths, but there are also many similarities. There are a lot of diffences between the Bahai Faith and Buddhism, but there are also many similarities. i prefer to look at the similarities rather than the differences, because looking at the differences only promotes division, and the Baha'i Faith teaches that we should seek harmony and unity, even though we are diverse in our beliefs and our personalities.

BEAUTY AND HARMONY IN DIVERSITY

Here is good article that compares the Baha'i Faith to Buddhism that points out the similarities and the differences:

Buddhism and the Bahá'í Faith

 

[Trailblazer]

In my understanding, the fundamental tenets of Buddhism are as different from Bahai as it is possible to be.

What do you think is SO different?

 

[Secret Chief]

Tiberius said: Doesn't your own faith contradict parts of other faiths?

Trailblazer said: No.

I answered no because I do not think my beliefs contradict other faiths but rather they are different from the beliefs of other faiths, but there are also many similarities. There are a lot of diffences between the Bahai Faith and Buddhism, but there are also many similarities. i prefer to look at the similarities rather than the differences, because looking at the differences only promotes division, and the Baha'i Faith teaches that we should seek harmony and unity, even though we are diverse in our beliefs and our personalities.

BEAUTY AND HARMONY IN DIVERSITY

Here is good article that compares the Baha'i Faith to Buddhism that points out the similarities and the differences:

Buddhism and the Bahá'í Faith

There may indeed be similarities but the fundamentals are diametrically opposed.

 

[Secret Chief]

What do you think is SO different?

No abiding soul and no creator deity.