Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[CG Didymus]

12It is a day, and he shall come up to you: those from Assyria and the fortified cities, and from the fortress up to the river and the sea from the west, and the dwellers of the mountain.

Okay, here is one of them you quoted. It has "he" but then says "those"? And the order is Assyria and the fortified cities, then from a fortress up to a river, then the sea, and last, the dwellers of the mountain? That doesn't fit at all. But if we continue to use "those", it does fit. Those will come from all those other places and so will the dwellers of the mountain.

There shall be a day when they shall come unto thee, from Assyria even to the cities of Egypt, and from Egypt even to the River, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

This is the one I quoted. And it has "they". The order here is Assyria, cities in Egypt, a river, a sea to sea and from mountain to mountain. But if "They" is the correct translation, then it's people coming from all these places.

12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

Then there's this translation. He will come from Assyria, from the fortified cities, from some fortress, to a river, from sea to sea and, finally, a mountain to a mountain. Is that the correct order?

Moreover, when a prophecy has so many different translations how can anyone possibly know which one is the correct one.

And we have the usual problem. Do we know who wrote it? Was it really Micah? Over the centuries were there changes? Then on top of that... whose translation are we going to use?

 

[CG Didymus]

Do you mean a prophecy that Baha'u'llah made, a prediction He made that came to pass?

That is a much better idea.

 

[CG Didymus]

Sure seems to me that you misunderstood.



Yes, a control group is the thing that you think is required when it comes confirming science but not when it comes to religion.

My point was that the results of praying to God are no different to what we'd expect from random chance, such as if we prayed to a toaster - the hypothetical group who prayed to the toaster being the control group. You know what a control group is, right? It's the group that is the same as the test group, except the thing being tested for has been altered. In the hypothetical toaster prayer experiment, the toaster control group is doing everything the "pray to God" group is doing, the only change is that what they are praying to is different. It should be clear to anyone with a basic understanding of the scientific method that if the "God" group had the same results as the "toaster" group, then either the toaster answers prayers, or God does not answer prayers.

Several studies have been done on whether prayer has any benefits, and they generally conclude that no, prayer has zero actual benefits and it is no difference to random chance.

1: The Prayer Experiment

CiteSeerX — Are there demonstrable effects of distant intercessory prayer? A metaanalytic review

And isn't that what we have? Each religion and each sect within a religion prays to their concept of a God or Gods or whatever. All probably have fairly equal results. Maybe some have slightly better results. Like I know of a Scientologist that has had great results. And its only cost him ten or twelve grand. But I don't know if it involves any prayer.

 

[Truthseeker]

I looked at a website and it says the Hebrew translates as "he shall come."
Micah 7:12 “In that day also he shall come even to…”: Translation, Meaning

Below is the translation from Chabad, the Jewish bible.

Verse 10 says: Where is the Lord your God?"
Verse 12 says: It is a day, and he shall come up to you:

Thus it seems to me like the Lord your God is the he spoken of in verse 10.

Michah - Micah - Chapter 7

1Woe is to me, for I am as the last of the figs, like the gleanings of the vintage; there is no cluster to eat; the first ripe fig my soul desires.

2The pious have perished from the land, and there is no upright among men; they all lurk for blood; each one hunts his brother with a net.

3[In return] for the evil of their hands, do they expect that He will benefit them? The prince asks, and the judge is in the payment, and the great man speaks what is in his heart-and they weave the web.

4The best of them is like a brier, the most upright, [worse] than a thorn hedge. The day to which you look forward-your visitation-shall come; now will be their perplexity.

5Believe not a friend; trust not a prince; from she who lies in your bosom guard the openings of your mouth.

6For a son disgraces his father; a daughter rises up against her mother; a daughter-in-law, against her mother- in-law; a man's enemies are the members of his household.

7But I will hope in the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation; my God shall hearken to me.

8Rejoice not against me, my enemy; although I have fallen, I will rise; although I will sit in darkness, the Lord is a light to me.

9I will bear the fury of the Lord-for I have sinned against Him-until He pleads my cause and executes justice for me. He shall take me out into the light; I will see His righteousness.

10And my enemy shall see, and shame shall cover her who says to me, "Where is the Lord your God?" My eyes shall gaze upon her: now she shall become trodden as the mire of the streets.

11"The day to build your walls-that day-its time is way off."

12It is a day, and he shall come up to you: those from Assyria and the fortified cities, and from the fortress up to the river and the sea from the west, and the dwellers of the mountain.

13And the land shall become desolate [together] with its inhabitants because of the fruit of their deeds.

14Lead Your people with Your rod-the flock of Your inheritance who dwell alone, a forest in the midst of a fruitful field-and they shall graze in Bashan and Gilead as in days of yore.

15As in the days of your exodus from the land of Egypt, I will show him wonders.

16Nations shall see and be ashamed of all their might-they shall place a hand upon their mouth; their ears shall become deaf.

17They shall lick the dust as a snake, as those who crawl on the earth. They shall quake from their imprisonment; they shall fear the Lord, our God, and they shall fear you.

18Who is a God like You, Who forgives iniquity and passes over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage? He does not maintain His anger forever, for He desires loving-kindness.

19He shall return and grant us compassion; He shall hide our iniquities, and You shall cast into the depths of the sea all their sins.

20You shall give the truth of Jacob, the loving-kindness of Abraham, which You swore to our forefathers from days of yore.

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16193?#lt=primary

Hard to follow all that. Also I notice that in verse 12 after saying "It is a day, and he shall come up to you" it says "those from Assyria and the fortified cities, and from the fortress up to the river and the sea from the west, and the dwellers of the mountain.". A mixed message of "he" and "those".

Now that I look further, and think about it the verses that follow 12 they could refer to the results of His coming. For instance:

""18Who is a God like You, Who forgives iniquity and passes over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage? He does not maintain His anger forever, for He desires loving-kindness.

19He shall return and grant us compassion; He shall hide our iniquities, and You shall cast into the depths of the sea all their sins.

20You shall give the truth of Jacob, the loving-kindness of Abraham, which You swore to our forefathers from days of yore."

It means something to me but what about those skeptics? That's really the point.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sure seems to me that you misunderstood.

Yes, a control group is the thing that you think is required when it comes confirming science but not when it comes to religion.

My point was that the results of praying to God are no different to what we'd expect from random chance, such as if we prayed to a toaster - the hypothetical group who prayed to the toaster being the control group. You know what a control group is, right? It's the group that is the same as the test group, except the thing being tested for has been altered. In the hypothetical toaster prayer experiment, the toaster control group is doing everything the "pray to God" group is doing, the only change is that what they are praying to is different. It should be clear to anyone with a basic understanding of the scientific method that if the "God" group had the same results as the "toaster" group, then either the toaster answers prayers, or God does not answer prayers.

Several studies have been done on whether prayer has any benefits, and they generally conclude that no, prayer has zero actual benefits and it is no difference to random chance.

1: The Prayer Experiment
CiteSeerX — Are there demonstrable effects of distant intercessory prayer? A metaanalytic review

I knew that your point was that the results of praying to God are no different to what we'd expect from random chance, such as if we prayed to a toaster. What I did not know is that there had been experiments done wherein the "God" group had the same results as the "toaster" group. That is why I said what I said. Unless ther was actually a God group and a Toaster group you cannot know if both groups would have the same results.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't know. You should pick your best prophecy. Not your worst.

What I would consider the best you would probably consider the worst, so I will leave you to pick one from the list.

Baha’u’llah predicted many things that later came to pass. In this book, which can be read online, is a list of 30 specific things that Baha’u’llah predicted that later came to pass: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

 

[Subduction Zone]

What I would consider the best you would probably consider the worst, so I will leave you to pick one from the list.

Baha’u’llah predicted many things that later came to pass. In this book, which can be read online, is a list of 30 specific things that Baha’u’llah predicted that later came to pass: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

The problem is that they all probably fail. That is why I asked you to pick what you think is the best one. Do you think that you can listen to reason if I refute it?

 

[Trailblazer]

So it seems that travelling to those places is largely irrelevant, since the subgroup it creates still contains many people.

No, there was no subgroup created by traveling to those places.

 

[Trailblazer]

The problem is that they all probably fail. That is why I asked you to pick what you think is the best one. Do you think that you can listen to reason if I refute it?

I am sure you will say that they all fail and that is why I am not going to bother listing any.

I am not going to agree that they are failed prophecies just because they do not meet your standards for what a prophecy should be.

 

[Truthseeker]

Sure seems to me that you misunderstood.



Yes, a control group is the thing that you think is required when it comes confirming science but not when it comes to religion.

My point was that the results of praying to God are no different to what we'd expect from random chance, such as if we prayed to a toaster - the hypothetical group who prayed to the toaster being the control group. You know what a control group is, right? It's the group that is the same as the test group, except the thing being tested for has been altered. In the hypothetical toaster prayer experiment, the toaster control group is doing everything the "pray to God" group is doing, the only change is that what they are praying to is different. It should be clear to anyone with a basic understanding of the scientific method that if the "God" group had the same results as the "toaster" group, then either the toaster answers prayers, or God does not answer prayers.

Several studies have been done on whether prayer has any benefits, and they generally conclude that no, prayer has zero actual benefits and it is no difference to random chance.

1: The Prayer Experiment

CiteSeerX — Are there demonstrable effects of distant intercessory prayer? A metaanalytic review

I myself in my community find prayers for healing have little affect on those who sick, as far I can tell. However, for me prayer is for a connection with God that has an effect on me spiritually at times. I feel that connection, I feel alive, not dead. I theorize that the effect of our prayers on sick people depends on our own spirituality and our connection with the person we are praying for. In my community, most of the people who pray for others have little connection with most of the people they are praying for. The number of people prayed for are piled on as a group. How can this have any effect? I ask Baha'is here as well as you. How about it @Trailblazer? how about it @TransmutingSoul?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I am sure you will say that they all fail and that is why I am not going to bother listing any.

I am not going to agree that they are failed prophecies just because they do not meet your standards for what a prophecy should be.

Maybe because you know already that when one analyzes them rationally that they do all fail. This is why you have no reliable evidence for your beliefs. Not because it does not exist. Who knows, it may exist, but because you appear to be to afraid to properly test your ideas.

 

[Trailblazer]

Maybe because you know already that when one analyzes them rationally that they do all fail.

No, that is not the reason. The reason is because all atheists will say they fail, just because they fail to prove something to them... Been there, done that.

This is why you have no reliable evidence for your beliefs. Not because it does not exist. Who knows, it may exist, but because you appear to be to afraid to properly test your ideas.

I do not know how many dozens of times I have said that fulfilled or prophecies and predictions Baha'u'llah made are not the evidence of who He was. That is no test at all. I looked at the evidence that demonstrated the truth of Baha'u'llah's claims. The following is the reliable evidence whether you consider it reliable evidence or not.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with 106 the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities). That can be determined by reading about Him on books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4

His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
That can be determined by reading about His mission on books such as the following:

God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

The words He hath revealed is what He wrote can be found in books that are posted online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

 

[Tiberius]

And isn't that what we have? Each religion and each sect within a religion prays to their concept of a God or Gods or whatever. All probably have fairly equal results. Maybe some have slightly better results. Like I know of a Scientologist that has had great results. And its only cost him ten or twelve grand. But I don't know if it involves any prayer.

If all the different religious faiths get pretty much the same result (and that same result is no better than random chance), then it shows that no religion gets any benefit from prayer. This is exactly what we'd expect to see if religion wasn't true.

 

[Tiberius]

I knew that your point was that the results of praying to God are no different to what we'd expect from random chance, such as if we prayed to a toaster. What I did not know is that there had been experiments done wherein the "God" group had the same results as the "toaster" group. That is why I said what I said. Unless ther was actually a God group and a Toaster group you cannot know if both groups would have the same results.

In other words, you decided to completely ignore the point I was actually making and derail the discussion.

I've seen many religious people do that before. This is just one example of what I mean when I say that I see you using the same tricks that other believers use.

 

[Tiberius]

No, there was no subgroup created by traveling to those places.

Yes there was.

Group = total population.

Subgroup = only those members of the total population who went to those particular places.

Would you like me to draw you a diagram?

 

[Tiberius]

I myself in my community find prayers for healing have little affect on those who sick, as far I can tell. However, for me prayer is for a connection with God that has an effect on me spiritually at times. I feel that connection, I feel alive, not dead. I theorize that the effect of our prayers on sick people depends on our own spirituality and our connection with the person we are praying for. In my community, most of the people who pray for others have little connection with most of the people they are praying for. The number of people prayed for are piled on as a group. How can this have any effect? I ask Baha'is here as well as you. How about it @Trailblazer? how about it @TransmutingSoul?

I'm sure there are many people who get similar benefits from talking to their imaginary friends.

 

[Trailblazer]

I myself in my community find prayers for healing have little affect on those who sick, as far I can tell. However, for me prayer is for a connection with God that has an effect on me spiritually at times. I feel that connection, I feel alive, not dead. I theorize that the effect of our prayers on sick people depends on our own spirituality and our connection with the person we are praying for. In my community, most of the people who pray for others have little connection with most of the people they are praying for. The number of people prayed for are piled on as a group. How can this have any effect? I ask Baha'is here as well as you. How about it @Trailblazer? how about it @TransmutingSoul?

Personally I think it is a waste of time to pray for sick people. What is God going to do, reverse their illness? Baha'is always say to pray for someone who is sick but I always wonder why. It is almost as if they are robots doing what they were programmed to do. I only rarely pray for help with certain things but I leave it in the Hands of God as to what the result will be.

 

[Trailblazer]

In other words, you decided to completely ignore the point I was actually making and derail the discussion.

I've seen many religious people do that before. This is just one example of what I mean when I say that I see you using the same tricks that other believers use.

I did not ignore your point, I just had another point to make.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes there was.

Group = total population.

Subgroup = only those members of the total population who went to those particular places.

Would you like me to draw you a diagram?

I have no idea what you are going on about but you have veered far from what the verse actually says.

 

[Truthseeker]

Personally I think it is a waste of time to pray for sick people. What is God going to do, reverse their illness? Baha'is always say to pray for someone who is sick but I always wonder why. It is almost as if they are robots doing what they were programmed to do. I only rarely pray for help with certain things but I leave it in the Hands of God as to what the result will be.

If you read the history of out faith figures such as Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha had a a definite effect on people's health at times. That's why I theorize that those have a close connection with God and pray for a person they know well can have an effect on other people's health. Such is not the case in today's Baha'i community. For one thing, numerous people are sometimes mentioned as needing healing prayers, as if this one prayer can help them all, which are strangers to us. It is somewhat understandable the prevalence of healing prayers in my community since so many people are old in the communities here, and illness comes with age. But to me, it also indicates a materialistic bent. My wife disagrees with this. It has become almost a ritual here. There is also no new Baha'is here as far as I can tell, which I admit I have a lot of ignorance about that. The situation in this area has not progressed since 1972 when I first came here. It could be that materialism has ruined this area. This country is materialistic and it has affected Baha'is also. It also affects the people who don't listen to us.

Good night, have a good sleep!