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Featured Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by infrabenji, Jul 15, 2021.

  1. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

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    I don't see what was stopping them.
     
  2. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

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    Minor differences, I think.
     
  3. samtonga43

    samtonga43 Active Member

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    :facepalm:It wasn't intended to be a conversation, Tb. It was an instinctive response to an embarrassing
    misunderstanding on your part of an analogy intended (by an atheist) to show that a toaster is as reliable as God when it comes to answering prayer.
    I really don't think that the atheist in question intends you to believe that there is a group of people out there somewhere who sit in a circle in the kitchen and pray to the toaster.

    That would be silly, wouldn't it? :rolleyes:
     
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  4. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    I am no more impressed when Christians try to take a verse that is not about Jesus and repurpose it than if another religion does it for their leader. That still fails.
     
  5. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Micah 7:12
    NIV In that day people will come to you from Assyria
    NLT People from many lands will come and honor you
    NKJV In that day they shall come to you
    NASB It will be a day when they will come to you
    JPS Tanakh 1917 There shall be a day when they shall come unto thee

    But the Baha'is use the King James Version and it says...
    In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria

    Is the KJV the most reliable translation? Are all the other translations wrong? There are people here on the forum that know Hebrew. I wonder what they'd say? I wonder what they'd say about the in context meaning of this one verse?

    But, that doesn't matter. Baha'is go by the KJV and some Baha'i found this verse and it said, "He", and that was good enough for him. TB knows all of this, and still, she puts this out there as if it is a fulfilled prophecy?
     
  6. samtonga43

    samtonga43 Active Member

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  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    How do you know that I misunderstood what @Tiberius was getting at? I did not misunderstand as I knew exactly what he was getting at, but I was making a different point.

    I think it is always best to ask if you don't know what a person is thinking, rather than assuming you know.
    I suggest you do not assume what other people are thinking because you only end up with egg on your face.

    Why do you think I would be embarrassed by a misunderstanding? I am not embarrassed at all and I wouldn't be embarrassed even if I had misunderstood.
    Indeed it would be and that is why I said what I said. Nobody can know if the results of praying to a toaster would be any different from the results of praying to God unless an experiment was conducted wherein one group prayed to a toaster and another group prayed to God. Ever heard of a control group?
     
  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    In case you missed the post I posted to Truthseeker9 last night:

    I looked at a website and it says the Hebrew translates as "he shall come."
    Micah 7:12 “In that day also he shall come even to…”: Translation, Meaning

    Below is the translation from Chabad, the Jewish bible.

    Verse 10 says: Where is the Lord your God?"
    Verse 12 says: It is a day, and he shall come up to you:

    Thus it seems to me like the Lord your God is the he spoken of in verse 10.

    Michah - Micah - Chapter 7

    1Woe is to me, for I am as the last of the figs, like the gleanings of the vintage; there is no cluster to eat; the first ripe fig my soul desires.

    2The pious have perished from the land, and there is no upright among men; they all lurk for blood; each one hunts his brother with a net.

    3[In return] for the evil of their hands, do they expect that He will benefit them? The prince asks, and the judge is in the payment, and the great man speaks what is in his heart-and they weave the web.

    4The best of them is like a brier, the most upright, [worse] than a thorn hedge. The day to which you look forward-your visitation-shall come; now will be their perplexity.

    5Believe not a friend; trust not a prince; from she who lies in your bosom guard the openings of your mouth.

    6For a son disgraces his father; a daughter rises up against her mother; a daughter-in-law, against her mother- in-law; a man's enemies are the members of his household.

    7But I will hope in the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation; my God shall hearken to me.

    8Rejoice not against me, my enemy; although I have fallen, I will rise; although I will sit in darkness, the Lord is a light to me.

    9I will bear the fury of the Lord-for I have sinned against Him-until He pleads my cause and executes justice for me. He shall take me out into the light; I will see His righteousness.

    10And my enemy shall see, and shame shall cover her who says to me, "Where is the Lord your God?" My eyes shall gaze upon her: now she shall become trodden as the mire of the streets.

    11"The day to build your walls-that day-its time is way off."

    12It is a day, and he shall come up to you: those from Assyria and the fortified cities, and from the fortress up to the river and the sea from the west, and the dwellers of the mountain.

    13And the land shall become desolate [together] with its inhabitants because of the fruit of their deeds.

    14Lead Your people with Your rod-the flock of Your inheritance who dwell alone, a forest in the midst of a fruitful field-and they shall graze in Bashan and Gilead as in days of yore.

    15As in the days of your exodus from the land of Egypt, I will show him wonders.

    16Nations shall see and be ashamed of all their might-they shall place a hand upon their mouth; their ears shall become deaf.

    17They shall lick the dust as a snake, as those who crawl on the earth. They shall quake from their imprisonment; they shall fear the Lord, our God, and they shall fear you.

    18Who is a God like You, Who forgives iniquity and passes over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage? He does not maintain His anger forever, for He desires loving-kindness.

    19He shall return and grant us compassion; He shall hide our iniquities, and You shall cast into the depths of the sea all their sins.

    20You shall give the truth of Jacob, the loving-kindness of Abraham, which You swore to our forefathers from days of yore.

    https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16193?#lt=primary

    #2982 Trailblazer, Yesterday at 11:03 PM
     
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    How else are we going to know if Baha'u'llah was telling the truth making His claims true?

    Proofs of Prophethood

    Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men. The tests He proposed are the same as those laid down by His great predecessors. Moses said:—

    When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.—Deut. xviii, 22.

    Christ put His test just as plainly, and appealed to it in proof of His own claim. He said:—

    Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. … Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.—Matt. vii, 15–17, 20

    In the chapters that follow, we shall endeavor to show whether Bahá’u’lláh’s claim to Prophethood stands or falls by application of these tests: whether the things that He had spoken have followed and come to pass, and whether His fruits have been good or evil; in other words, whether His prophecies are being fulfilled and His ordinances established, and whether His lifework has contributed to the education and upliftment of humanity and the betterment of morals, or the contrary.”

    Proofs of Prophethood, Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 8-9
     
  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Many people could have traveled to those places in that order but that would not make them a Messenger of God.
    Unless a person "claimed" to BE a Messenger of God why would we believe a person was a Messenger of God?

    I do not know of anyone besides Baha'u'llah who traveled to those places in that order and ALSO claimed to be a Messenger of God.
     
  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Whether you are impressed or not is not the issue here. Why does it fail? How do you know it is not about Baha'u'llah?

    How do you know that certain verses that Christians say are about Jesus are not about Jesus? Is there any way to prove they aren't? If not, it is just a personal opinion vs. the personal opinion of those Christians.

    I do not believe that all the pprophecies Christians claim refer to Jesus refer to Jesus but I believe that some of the OT prophecies refer to Jesus. The way we can know is if Jesus actually was or did the things the verses say, and the same applies to Baha'u'llah.
     
  12. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    And here's one that says "they"...
    9 I will bear the indignation of the LORD, because I have sinned against Him; until He plead my cause, and execute judgment for me; He will bring me forth to the light, and I shall behold His righteousness.
    י וְתֵרֶא אֹיַבְתִּי, וּתְכַסֶּהָ בוּשָׁה--הָאֹמְרָה אֵלַי, אַיּוֹ יְהוָה אֱלֹהָיִךְ; עֵינַי תִּרְאֶינָּה בָּהּ, עַתָּה תִּהְיֶה לְמִרְמָס כְּטִיט חוּצוֹת. 10 Then mine enemy shall see it, and shame shall cover her; who said unto me: Where is the LORD thy God? Mine eyes shall gaze upon her; now shall she be trodden down as the mire of the streets.'
    יא יוֹם, לִבְנוֹת גְּדֵרָיִךְ; יוֹם הַהוּא, יִרְחַק חֹק. 11 'The day for building thy walls, even that day, shall be far removed.'
    יב יוֹם הוּא וְעָדֶיךָ יָבוֹא, לְמִנִּי אַשּׁוּר וְעָרֵי מָצוֹר; וּלְמִנִּי מָצוֹר וְעַד נָהָר, וְיָם מִיָּם וְהַר הָהָר. 12 There shall be a day when they shall come unto thee, from Assyria even to the cities of Egypt, and from Egypt even to the River, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.
    יג וְהָיְתָה הָאָרֶץ לִשְׁמָמָה, עַל יֹשְׁבֶיהָ, מִפְּרִי, מַעַלְלֵיהֶם. {פ} 13 And the land shall be desolate for them that dwell therein, because of the fruit of their doings. {P}

    And here is the one you linked to with added commentary...
    12 It is a day, and he shall come up to you: those from Assyria and the fortified cities, and from the fortress up to the river and the sea from the west, and the dwellers of the mountain.
    The commentary... It is a day, and he shall come up to you: The prophet says: That day that you deride, saying that it has been nullified and gone away - that day is guarded and preserved, and has not become nullified. The enemy shall come up to you to destroy you.
    from Assyria: which is the first of those who harmed us.

    So do you think all those other translations are wrong? And in the commentary, the Rabbi says that "he" is their enemy coming to destroy them. So is he wrong?
     
  13. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    It fails because it is vague It could be about many different people. And actually that chapter is about Israel itself. How did your guy (Bobby?) do anything for Israel? You are making the mistake of counting the near hits and ignoring the misses. But once again any "prophecy" that is overly vague is a failed prophecy because it has multiple possible results. One can pick many different famous people and count the hits in the Bible and claim that the hits are about him while ignoring the misses.

    Whether your guy matches those verses or not does not make it a fulfilled prophecy if it can be applied to others. Any prophecy that applies to multiple people instantly becomes a failed prophecy.

    A prophecy has to be specific.
     
  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    1. It must be accurate. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not accurate, because knowledge (and thus foreknowledge) excludes inaccurate statements. TLDR: It's true.

    I do not know what you mean by accurate. Do you mean that it is something that really happened in history? If so, it is known history that Bahaullah traveled to the places that fulfill Micah 7:12, in the exact order the prophecy states.

    2. It must be in the Bible. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not in the Bible, because Biblical by definition foreknowledge can only come from the Bible itself, rather than modern reinterpretations of the text. TLDR: It's in plain words in the Bible.

    Well, I agree with that for obvious reasons, but I do not know what you mean by “modern reinterpretations of the text.” What interpretation do you think is to be used?

    3. It must be precise and unambiguous. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if meaningless philosophical musings or multiple possible ideas could fulfill the foreknowledge, because ambiguity prevents one from knowing whether the foreknowledge was intentional rather than accidental. TLDR: Vague "predictions" don't count.

    I can agree that vague predictions are not very useful if we are trying to use them to determine whether they were actually fulfilled.

    4. It must be improbable. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of a pure guess, because foreknowledge requires a person to actually know something true, while a correct guess doesn't mean that the guesser knows anything. This also excludes contemporary beliefs that happened be true but were believed to be true without solid evidence. TLDR: Lucky guesses don't count.

    I don’t know what you mean by a guess. Allegedly, the prophets in the Bible got their knowledge from God. Why else would anyone even bother to pay any attention to what they revealed? As such, if a prophet revealed a prophecy it would not be a guess, it would be something he knew was going to transpire in the future.

    I do not understand why whether it is probable or improbable would have any bearing on whether the prophecy was actually fulfilled. If it was not something that you were expecting to happen and it happened why would you be more prone to believe it was fulfilled?

    5. It must have been unknown. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of an educated guess based off contemporary knowledge, because foreknowledge requires a person to know a statement when it would have been impossible, outside of supernatural power, for that person to know it. TLDR: Ideas of the time don't count.

    Again, what I said above applies. Allegedly, the prophets in the Bible got their knowledge from God. Why else would anyone even bother to pay any attention to what they revealed? As such, if a prophet revealed a prophecy it would not be a guess, it would be something he knew was going to transpire in the future.
    The fulfillment of Micah 7:12 by Baha’u’llah was accurate, in the Bible, precise and unambiguous, improbable and unknown, according to your delineations.

    Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

    As with most prophesies, it's easy to look back when you know what you're looking for to tell that it was fulfilled, but impossible to guess what it is referring to beforehand. It helps to look at the context, but even then one cannot know who “he” refers to unless one is looking at history and can see how it was fulfilled by a person in history.

    Also, prophecies are not written in a manner that we would know exactly what they were referring to because they were not intended to be so precise such that everyone could instantly identify a messiah in the future. God has never made things that easy. That might be what people would like but that was not the intention of the prophets.
     
  15. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    You are back to quote mining. That is picking the hits and ignoring the misses. Please stop. That is not a valid way to use a book. And please note that since we are discussing your beliefs you are not limited to the Bible. But it does appear that you are misusing it. The verse that you use could be used for anyone that went from Assyria to Israel. It is far to vague to be of any use as a "prophecy" when you quote mine in this fashioin.
     
  16. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Would you say that Christianity only bore good fruit? Or, some bad ones too? Even some very rotten fruit? Particularly something like the Inquisition.

    But then, again, do you really believe the gospel writers as having accurately reported the exact words of Jesus? 'Cause if those words are true, then which Christian church or sect doesn't have a lot of bad apples? So the best we can say is that some Christians bore good fruit and some bad.
     
  17. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Okay here is the verse plus the next one. So what was the order that Baha'u'llah went through to get to Akka? And how does the next verse fit the context?
    he shall come up to you: those from Assyria and the fortified cities, and from the fortress up to the river and the sea from the west, and the dwellers of the mountain.

    13And the land shall become desolate [together] with its inhabitants because of the fruit of their deeds.​

    Oh, and I just noticed that even with the translation you used, after saying "he" it has "those" from Assyria and ends with the "dwellers" of the mountain? So could you explain that also.
     
  18. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    What makes you think that chapter is about Israel> the Jews believe everything is about Israel, e.g, the Servant Songs, but they are not about Israel. Just as Christians want everything to be about Jesus, Jews want everything to be about Israel. Why Jews and Christians interpret the Bible as they do can be easily assessed with a basic understanding of psychology. Jews and Christians both want to believe that they are the chosen ones of God.

    No, it could not be about many different people for the reasons I just explained to Tiberius.

    Many people could have traveled to those places in that order but that would not make them a Messenger of God.
    Unless a person "claimed" to BE a Messenger of God why would we believe a person was a Messenger of God?

    I do not know of anyone besides Baha'u'llah who traveled to those places in that order and ALSO claimed to be a Messenger of God.

    #3010 Trailblazer, Today at 2:33 PM
    The caveat is that it cannot be applied to multiple people who ALSO claimed to be a Messenger of God.
    Look at the list of claimants to be the Messiah:

    List of messiah claimants - Wikipedia

    Go through the list one by one and see if any one of them except Baha'u'llah traveled that exact route. This is how research is done if one wants to know who the Messiah really was.
    Only because you want it to be. God did not want it to be so specific that it would be a dead giveaway and that is why prophecies are not written like a set of instructions on a new product you purchase. However, God made it possible for any sincere seeker of truth to figure out who the Messiah was by looking at the prophecies and then looking at history and determining how the prophecies were fulfilled.
     
  19. samtonga43

    samtonga43 Active Member

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    Many people claim to be a Messenger of God, or even God Himself.
    And many who make such claims are in special hospitals.
     
  20. samtonga43

    samtonga43 Active Member

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    No, I know that you are not embarrassed, Tb. But I am embarrassed for you and I think I am making it worse, so I'll leave to your toaster.
     
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