Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Trailblazer]

I hate to do this to you, but in the American Standard version the translation is this:

12 In that day shall they come unto thee from Assyria and the cities of Egypt, and from Egypt even to the River, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

In the English Standard version this is the translation:

12 In that day they will come to you,
from Assyria and the cities of Egypt,
and from Egypt to the River,
from sea to sea and from mountain to mountain.

The International Standard version says this:

12 At that time armies will invade you from Assyria,
from Egyptian cities to the Euphrates River,
from sea to sea
and from mountain to mountain.

The New American Standard bible 1995:

12 It will be a day when they will come to you
From Assyria and the cities of Egypt,
From Egypt even to the Euphrates,
Even from sea to sea and mountain to mountain.

The New Catholic Bible:

12 It will be a day when they will come to you
From Assyria and the cities of Egypt,
From Egypt even to the Euphrates,
Even from sea to sea and mountain to mountain.

I think you get my point. I look at all of these versions and none of them say "he". The King James Bible is unique in this.

I looked at all the translations and they are all very different but there are other translations that say he. What do all these different translations tell you about the Bible, logically speaking? It does not mean that the KJV translation is wrong, it simply means we cannot know what is right.

And who is they who will come?

 

[Trailblazer]

I hate to do this to you, but in the American Standard version the translation is this:

12 In that day shall they come unto thee from Assyria and the cities of Egypt, and from Egypt even to the River, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

In the English Standard version this is the translation:

12 In that day they will come to you,
from Assyria and the cities of Egypt,
and from Egypt to the River,
from sea to sea and from mountain to mountain.

The International Standard version says this:

12 At that time armies will invade you from Assyria,
from Egyptian cities to the Euphrates River,
from sea to sea
and from mountain to mountain.

The New American Standard bible 1995:

12 It will be a day when they will come to you
From Assyria and the cities of Egypt,
From Egypt even to the Euphrates,
Even from sea to sea and mountain to mountain.

The New Catholic Bible:

12 It will be a day when they will come to you
From Assyria and the cities of Egypt,
From Egypt even to the Euphrates,
Even from sea to sea and mountain to mountain.

I think you get my point. I look at all of these versions and none of them say "he". The King James Bible is unique in this.

I looked at a website and it says the Hebrew translates as "he shall come."
Micah 7:12 “In that day also he shall come even to…”: Translation, Meaning

Below is the translation from Chabad, the Jewish bible.

Verse 10 says: Where is the Lord your God?"
Verse 12 says: It is a day, and he shall come up to you:

Thus it seems to me like the Lord your God is the he spoken of in verse 10.

Michah - Micah - Chapter 7

1Woe is to me, for I am as the last of the figs, like the gleanings of the vintage; there is no cluster to eat; the first ripe fig my soul desires.

2The pious have perished from the land, and there is no upright among men; they all lurk for blood; each one hunts his brother with a net.

3[In return] for the evil of their hands, do they expect that He will benefit them? The prince asks, and the judge is in the payment, and the great man speaks what is in his heart-and they weave the web.

4The best of them is like a brier, the most upright, [worse] than a thorn hedge. The day to which you look forward-your visitation-shall come; now will be their perplexity.

5Believe not a friend; trust not a prince; from she who lies in your bosom guard the openings of your mouth.

6For a son disgraces his father; a daughter rises up against her mother; a daughter-in-law, against her mother- in-law; a man's enemies are the members of his household.

7But I will hope in the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation; my God shall hearken to me.

8Rejoice not against me, my enemy; although I have fallen, I will rise; although I will sit in darkness, the Lord is a light to me.

9I will bear the fury of the Lord-for I have sinned against Him-until He pleads my cause and executes justice for me. He shall take me out into the light; I will see His righteousness.

10And my enemy shall see, and shame shall cover her who says to me, "Where is the Lord your God?" My eyes shall gaze upon her: now she shall become trodden as the mire of the streets.

11"The day to build your walls-that day-its time is way off."

12It is a day, and he shall come up to you: those from Assyria and the fortified cities, and from the fortress up to the river and the sea from the west, and the dwellers of the mountain.

13And the land shall become desolate [together] with its inhabitants because of the fruit of their deeds.

14Lead Your people with Your rod-the flock of Your inheritance who dwell alone, a forest in the midst of a fruitful field-and they shall graze in Bashan and Gilead as in days of yore.

15As in the days of your exodus from the land of Egypt, I will show him wonders.

16Nations shall see and be ashamed of all their might-they shall place a hand upon their mouth; their ears shall become deaf.

17They shall lick the dust as a snake, as those who crawl on the earth. They shall quake from their imprisonment; they shall fear the Lord, our God, and they shall fear you.

18Who is a God like You, Who forgives iniquity and passes over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage? He does not maintain His anger forever, for He desires loving-kindness.

19He shall return and grant us compassion; He shall hide our iniquities, and You shall cast into the depths of the sea all their sins.

20You shall give the truth of Jacob, the loving-kindness of Abraham, which You swore to our forefathers from days of yore.

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16193?#lt=primary

 

[Truthseeker]

I looked at all the translations and they are all very different but there are other translations that say he. What do all these different translations tell you about the Bible, logically speaking? It does not mean that the KJV translation is wrong, it simply means we cannot know what is right.

And who is they who will come?

I just looked at a lot of translations just now, I didn't look at all. One translation suggests it's a invasion of people. This does cast doubt on using that prophecy. After all, it's from a fallible interpretation by William Sears. Probably we should look at the surrounding verses and see the context. I'm too tired to do this right now. It is late for me. Look at the surrounding verses, I suggest. I take little stock in trying to prove something with prophecies anyway.

 

[Truthseeker]

I see you have some context above. I'm too tired to go over it. I got to go to bed.

 

[Trailblazer]

I see you have some context above. I'm too tired to go over it. I got to go to bed.

Okay, you can look at it tomorrow.

 

[Trailblazer]

I just looked at a lot of translations just now, I didn't look at all. One translation suggests it's a invasion of people. This does cast doubt on using that prophecy. After all, it's from a fallible interpretation by William Sears. Probably we should look at the surrounding verses and see the context. I'm too tired to do this right now. It is late for me. Look at the surrounding verses, I suggest. I take little stock in trying to prove something with prophecies anyway.

I did look at the surrounding verses and the context and I posted my interpretation to CG some time ago. Since I have it saved in a Word doc, here it is:

CG Didymus said: All we're really using is verse 12, though. What is verse 13 talking about, and what is the rest of the chapter talking about? Is it all a Messianic prophecy? If it's only verse 12, then it's hard for me to accept one verse taken out of context, so, hopefully, you can tie in the rest of the chapter.

Okay, I will try to tie it in…

Micah 7 King James Version (KJV)

7 Woe is me! for I am as when they have gathered the summer fruits, as the grapegleanings of the vintage: there is no cluster to eat: my soul desired the firstripe fruit.

2 The good man is perished out of the earth: and there is none upright among men: they all lie in wait for blood; they hunt every man his brother with a net.

3 That they may do evil with both hands earnestly, the prince asketh, and the judge asketh for a reward; and the great man, he uttereth his mischievous desire: so they wrap it up.

4 The best of them is as a brier: the most upright is sharper than a thorn hedge: the day of thy watchmen and thy visitation cometh; now shall be their perplexity.

5 Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom.

6 For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house.

I think that the gist of verses 1-6 is summarized in verse 2 -- The good man is perished out of the earth: and there is none upright among men – and verses 1-6 are a lead-in to the verses that come after that.

7 Therefore I will look unto the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me.

8 Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy: when I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, the Lord shall be a light unto me.

9 I will bear the indignation of the Lord, because I have sinned against him, until he plead my cause, and execute judgment for me: he will bring me forth to the light, and I shall behold his righteousness.

10 Then she that is mine enemy shall see it, and shame shall cover her which said unto me, Where is the Lord thy God? mine eyes shall behold her: now shall she be trodden down as the mire of the streets.

Then, in verses 7-10, he says he will look to the Lord, because man has failed (which he described in verses 1-6).

7 Therefore I will look unto the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me.

Verse 7 is a lead-in to verses 11-20, which are about the Lord, the Lord of Hosts who will come in the Person of the Messiah. Micah describes what will happen in that day. All these things happened in the days of Baha’u’llah.

11 In the day that thy walls are to be built, in that day shall the decree be far removed.

The decree was removed in 1844:

Edict of Toleration 1844

An edict of toleration is a declaration, made by a government or ruler and states, that members of a given religion will not be persecuted for engaging in their religious practices and traditions. The edict implies tacit acceptance of the religion rather than its endorsement by the ruling power.

Edict of toleration - Wikipedia

Verse 12 describes where the Messiah will come from and go to:

12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

Verses 13-20 describe what the lands looked like and what the Messiah would do.

13 Notwithstanding the land shall be desolate because of them that dwell therein, for the fruit of their doings.

14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.

15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.

16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.

17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the Lord our God, and shall fear because of thee.

18 Who is a God like unto thee, thatpardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? heretaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.

20 Thou wilt perform the truth to Jacob, and the mercy to Abraham, which thou hast sworn unto our fathers from the days of old.

All of this can be tied in with what William Sears wrote in his book Thief in the Night.

 

[Tiberius]

I'll see what I can do if and when I have time. If you mean they have to pass your criteria in order to be convincing that might be true, but there are many prophecies that were written that are valid prophecies even if they are not convincing. What makes them valid is that they were given by a prophet, not whether they were convincing. I can give you an example of what I mean later.

I hope you realize that you are not the only person with a set of criteria. A few months ago, I went through this whole exercise with @Tiberius, and he has his own set of criteria.

1. The prophecy must not be about something that is likely to happen anyway.
2. Where we have verified that the prophecy was written prior to the event that fulfilled it.
3. Where we have verified that the event that fulfilled it really took place in a way that fulfilled the prophecy.
4. The the fulfilling event was not done by someone simply to make the prophecy come true.
5. The prophecy is specific and is not open to interpretation.

I find @Subduction Zone's criteria to be quite good. His first criterion seems fairly similar to my fifth, in that it must clearly refer to something specific that actually happened. His second is vital for Biblical prophecy, of course, but is not required for something to be a prophecy of some other kind. Sub's third, fourth and fifth seem to cover much the same ground as my third, fourth, and fifth. As he says, there is a fair amount of overlap.

 

[Tiberius]

You'd have to ask him. From his perspective I am sure I bombed out but that discussion went on for a long time and it was a while ago so I cannot remember what note we ended on, but we are still friends and that is what is important to me. From what I recall, I think we decided that proving anything with prophecies is rather futile.

Btw, I just added to your post while you were responding to it, so you might want to go back and read what I said.

From what I can remember, I believe you failed because the prophecies you claimed Mr B fulfilled were not specific (you said he went to certain places, yet anyone could have gone to these places), you relied on one particular interpretation of the prophecy while not showing that no other interpretation was possible, and you said that a temple was built in a specific location when they could have decided to build the temple there to fulfill the prophecy. As such, I claimed you failed on points 1, 4 and 5 of my criteria.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Why don't you look at what I said about Micah 7:12 and see if it meets your criteria, why it does or doesnt.

#2970 Trailblazer, Today at 9:24 PM

One should never quotemine. Quotes should be taking in context. That part of Miah is thought to be history written as if it were prophesy. Or are you trying to reapply it to the founder of your religion? It would fail at the latter since it is a quotemine and does not reflect the meaning of the "prophesy". And since it appears to have been written after the actual event it does not qualify as prophesy either.

 

[Tiberius]

And since it appears to have been written after the actual event it does not qualify as prophesy either.

So it fails at point 2 of my criteria.

 

[Trailblazer]

From what I can remember, I believe you failed because the prophecies you claimed Mr B fulfilled were not specific (you said he went to certain places, yet anyone could have gone to these places), you relied on one particular interpretation of the prophecy while not showing that no other interpretation was possible, and you said that a temple was built in a specific location when they could have decided to build the temple there to fulfill the prophecy. As such, I claimed you failed on points 1, 4 and 5 of my criteria.

Now I remember what went on, and I also remember that I disagreed with you. Not anyone could have done what that verse says in the order it happened AND also lay claim to be a Messenger of God AND fulfill all the other prophecies for the messiah.

 

[Trailblazer]

One should never quotemine. Quotes should be taking in context. That part of Miah is thought to be history written as if it were prophesy. Or are you trying to reapply it to the founder of your religion? It would fail at the latter since it is a quotemine and does not reflect the meaning of the "prophesy". And since it appears to have been written after the actual event it does not qualify as prophesy either.

I explained how I believe Micah 7:12 fits in with the rest of chapter 7 in this post:

#2986 Trailblazer, Yesterday at 11:12 PM

How do you figure it was written after the actual event?

 

[Trailblazer]

So it fails at point 2 of my criteria.

Only it was not written after the event since the event occurred in the 19th century and the Old Testament was written thousands of years ago. I await for an explanation of what SZ thinks that event was.

Composition. Some, but not all, scholars accept that only chapters 1–3 contain material from the late 8th century prophet Micah. The latest material comes from the post-Exilic period after the Temple was rebuilt in 515 BCE, so that the early 5th century BCE seems to be the period when the book was completed.

Book of Micah - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

I find @Subduction Zone's criteria to be quite good. His first criterion seems fairly similar to my fifth, in that it must clearly refer to something specific that actually happened. His second is vital for Biblical prophecy, of course, but is not required for something to be a prophecy of some other kind. Sub's third, fourth and fifth seem to cover much the same ground as my third, fourth, and fifth. As he says, there is a fair amount of overlap.

That's true, there is some overlap, but there are also some differences.

 

[samtonga43]

Who is this Group B who prays to a toaster? I don't know of any such group.

Just noticed this.
Literalism kills understanding

 

[Trailblazer]

Just noticed this.
Literalism kills understanding

Is it possible for you to not make assumptions about what I meant?
Is it possible for you to have an actual conversation instead of taking pot shots?

Since people do not pray to toasters it is impossible to compare the results of praying to a toaster to the results of praying to God. How is that literalism?

 

[samtonga43]

Is it possible for you to not make assumptions about what I meant?
Is it possible for you to have an actual conversation instead of taking pot shots?

Since people do not pray to toasters it is impossible to compare the results of praying to a toaster to the results of praying to God. How is that literalism?

Oh, Tb!!

 

[Trailblazer]

Oh, Tb!!

How is that a conversation, or are you just not up to it?

Since people do not pray to toasters how is it possible to compare the results of praying to a toaster to the results of praying to God?

 

[ratiocinator]

Why don't you consider his character and the history of the Baha'i Faith (his revelation) to be objective evidence?
There is information based upon facts that were known to people living in the days of Baha'u'llah and this information has been recorded so it can be examined and evaluated.

Objective evidence refers to information based on facts that can be proved by means of search like analysis, measurement, and observation. One can examine and evaluate objective evidence.

I can't believe I'm having to point this out: because his character and the history of the faith tells us nothing about the truth of his religious claims. How can it?

 

[Tiberius]

Only it was not written after the event since the event occurred in the 19th century and the Old Testament was written thousands of years ago. I await for an explanation of what SZ thinks that event was.

Composition. Some, but not all, scholars accept that only chapters 1–3 contain material from the late 8th century prophet Micah. The latest material comes from the post-Exilic period after the Temple was rebuilt in 515 BCE, so that the early 5th century BCE seems to be the period when the book was completed.

Book of Micah - Wikipedia

You'll have to take that up with Subduction zone.