Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Actually it does. The problem with vague prophecies is that they can be "fulfilled" more than once. That means that you did not know if the prophesy was about event A or B or if it is yet another prophecy in the future. Vague prophecies are automatically failed prophecies.
I do not assume there is a supernatural, I believe there is. The reason I believe it is because of what scriptures reveal, and there are also other books written on such subjects as the afterlife.
Simple, because people interpret the objective evidence differently, according to their own subjective understandings.
A religious belief can be logical but what seems logical to one person will not seem logical to another person.
Obviously God has to exist in order to have a Messenger of God but I am not saying that God exists in order to have Messengers.
That is correct.
There is evidence. Just because you want to deny that it is evidence, does not make it non-evidence
Of course it had an influence, because there would have been no way for me to know that God exists were it not for the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.
I clearly explained that there is no way to test beliefs. What you believe would be a test would not prove a thing.
The problem that I see with vague prophecies is that they can be interpreted in more than one way to mean more than one thing, but even if vague, once a prophecy has been fulfilled, if it was really fulfilled, then it cannot be fulfilled again. The key is knowing if it has been fulfilled, how and by whom. For example:
I have posted the evidence numerous times but of course it has never been accepted as evidence, but here it is again. This post delineated both the claims and the evidence.
I am sorry but you simply cannot make that claim if it is vague. Its "fulfillment" is more dependent upon the interpretation of the person claiming that it has been fulfilled. That is why a proper prophecy needs some clear result. You can see that with various Christian prophecies. One of the reason that there are thousands of different sects is due to different interpretations of prophecy.
Who says that anyone was actively trying to do something in order to fulfill the blossoming desert prophecies?
Its fulfillment is dependent upon reality, upon what really happened, it is not upon the interpretation of the person claiming that it has been fulfilled becaue all people interpret the prophecies to suit their particular set of beliefs.
You are now conflating different prophecies.Who says that anyone was actively trying to do something in order to fulfill the blossoming desert prophecies?
"The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose." (Isaiah 35:1)
“It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.” (Isaiah 35:2)
The prophecies do not say how the desert would come to blossom as a rose. All it says is that it will happen, and the excellency of Carmel and Sharon will see the glory of the LORD.
Are you really suggesting that the Baha'is actively planted flowers in order to fake a fulfillment of a Bible prophecy? That is so far out in left field that it is laughable.
Its fulfillment is dependent upon reality, upon what really happened, it is not upon the interpretation of the person claiming that it has been fulfilled becaue all people interpret the prophecies to suit their particular set of beliefs.
It does not matter how clear the result is. If people do not want to believe it has been fulfilled they won't see it. This is all about psychology, it is 100% about what people want to believe and that is what they will see. Of course, this is not happening on a conscious level, it is subconscious.
What about Micah 7:12, how could Baha'u'llah fake it's fulfillment? No, that would have been impossible because Baha'u'llah did not order His own banishments and exiles from place to place. It doesn't matter though, people who want to deny that the prophecies pertain to Baha'u'llah will find any and all manner of excuses why they are not about Him. That is why no matter how specific the prophecies are they are worthless as evidence for all but a very small number of people who really want to know the truth.
Please note that Baha’u’llah had no control over His own destiny for the last 40 years of His Life after He declared His mission because He was deemed a prisoner of the government He was banished and exiled from place to place. The following prophecy was fulfilled by these exiles and banishments.
Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.
He shall come from Assyria: At that time Assyria was a large area. Baha’u’llah and His family lived in the part that was Persia, now Iran, in the city of Tihran.
and from the fortified cities: Baha’u’llah was banished from city to city: After being released from the Black Pit dungeon in Tihran in 1852, His family and companions had only a short time before being sent to the fortified city of Baghdad. While living in Baghdad, He gained such a large following that the enemies where shocked. Right away He was banished again, this time to the fortified city of Istanbul.
The Governor of the city refused many times to fulfill the orders that he received to banish Him again. Finally forced to follow orders, Baha’u’llah was banished again to the fortified city of Adrianople. He was honored and praised, and shown respect everywhere, until He was finally sent to the most horrific of all places, the fortress of Akka, where it was expected that He would succumb to the terrible conditions.
and from the fortress even to the river: It was while in Baghdad that the Tigris river became a special place, as Baha’u’llah crossed it to the Ridvan Garden. April 21, 1863 was the fulfilment of prophecy, as that was when Baha’u’llah declared to those around Him His Station as the Manifestation of God.
and from sea to sea: After His banishment in Baghdad, His exile was by way of the Black Sea. Still a prisoner He crossed the Black Sea from Sinope on His way to Constantinople. After the banishment in Adrianople, He crossed the Mediterranean Sea from Gallipolis in Turkey, embarking at Alexandria, Egypt, then on to the fortress of 'Akka, the most desolate of cities.
and from mountain to mountain: The time in Baghdad was turbulent with opposition. To protect His family and companions Baha’u’llah went to the Kurdistan mountains. There He lived in poverty, but the area was magnetized by His presence. After two years, He was persuaded to return to Baghdad.
The other mountain was in Israel, Mount Carmel, where He had docked before His final journey to Akka. Later He had a chance to return to Mount Carmel, to pitch His tent. Here He wrote the Tablet Of Carmel, surrounded by pilgrims looking for the return of Christ to descend from heaven. Mount Carmel is the headquarters of the Baha’i Faith.
From: William Sears, Thief in the Night
No, I was just citing them, not combining them into one.
I'll see what I can do if and when I have time. If you mean they have to pass your criteria in order to be convincing that might be true, but there are many prophecies that were written that are valid prophecies even if they are not convincing. What makes them valid is that they were given by a prophet, not whether they were convincing. I can give you an example of what I mean later.
There is a fair amount of overlap. How did you do with him?
You'd have to ask him. From his perspective I am sure I bombed out but that discussion went on for a long time and it was a while ago so I cannot remember what note we ended on, but we are still friends and that is what is important to me. From what I recall, I think we decided that proving anything with prophecies is rather futile.
Why don't you look at what I said about Micah 7:12 and see if it meets your criteria, why it does or doesnt.
I hate to do this to you, but in the American Standard version the translation is this:Who says that anyone was actively trying to do something in order to fulfill the blossoming desert prophecies?
"The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose." (Isaiah 35:1)
“It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.” (Isaiah 35:2)
The prophecies do not say how the desert would come to blossom as a rose. All it says is that it will happen, and the excellency of Carmel and Sharon will see the glory of the LORD.
Are you really suggesting that the Baha'is actively planted flowers in order to fake a fulfillment of a Bible prophecy? That is so far out in left field that it is laughable.
Its fulfillment is dependent upon reality, upon what really happened, it is not upon the interpretation of the person claiming that it has been fulfilled becaue all people interpret the prophecies to suit their particular set of beliefs.
It does not matter how clear the result is. If people do not want to believe it has been fulfilled they won't see it. This is all about psychology, it is 100% about what people want to believe and that is what they will see. Of course, this is not happening on a conscious level, it is subconscious.
What about Micah 7:12, how could Baha'u'llah fake it's fulfillment? No, that would have been impossible because Baha'u'llah did not order His own banishments and exiles from place to place. It doesn't matter though, people who want to deny that the prophecies pertain to Baha'u'llah will find any and all manner of excuses why they are not about Him. That is why no matter how specific the prophecies are they are worthless as evidence for all but a very small number of people who really want to know the truth.
Please note that Baha’u’llah had no control over His own destiny for the last 40 years of His Life after He declared His mission because He was deemed a prisoner of the government He was banished and exiled from place to place. The following prophecy was fulfilled by these exiles and banishments.
Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.
He shall come from Assyria: At that time Assyria was a large area. Baha’u’llah and His family lived in the part that was Persia, now Iran, in the city of Tihran.
and from the fortified cities: Baha’u’llah was banished from city to city: After being released from the Black Pit dungeon in Tihran in 1852, His family and companions had only a short time before being sent to the fortified city of Baghdad. While living in Baghdad, He gained such a large following that the enemies where shocked. Right away He was banished again, this time to the fortified city of Istanbul.
The Governor of the city refused many times to fulfill the orders that he received to banish Him again. Finally forced to follow orders, Baha’u’llah was banished again to the fortified city of Adrianople. He was honored and praised, and shown respect everywhere, until He was finally sent to the most horrific of all places, the fortress of Akka, where it was expected that He would succumb to the terrible conditions.
and from the fortress even to the river: It was while in Baghdad that the Tigris river became a special place, as Baha’u’llah crossed it to the Ridvan Garden. April 21, 1863 was the fulfilment of prophecy, as that was when Baha’u’llah declared to those around Him His Station as the Manifestation of God.
and from sea to sea: After His banishment in Baghdad, His exile was by way of the Black Sea. Still a prisoner He crossed the Black Sea from Sinope on His way to Constantinople. After the banishment in Adrianople, He crossed the Mediterranean Sea from Gallipolis in Turkey, embarking at Alexandria, Egypt, then on to the fortress of 'Akka, the most desolate of cities.
and from mountain to mountain: The time in Baghdad was turbulent with opposition. To protect His family and companions Baha’u’llah went to the Kurdistan mountains. There He lived in poverty, but the area was magnetized by His presence. After two years, He was persuaded to return to Baghdad.
The other mountain was in Israel, Mount Carmel, where He had docked before His final journey to Akka. Later He had a chance to return to Mount Carmel, to pitch His tent. Here He wrote the Tablet Of Carmel, surrounded by pilgrims looking for the return of Christ to descend from heaven. Mount Carmel is the headquarters of the Baha’i Faith.
From: William Sears, Thief in the Night