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Featured Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by infrabenji, Jul 15, 2021.

  1. night912

    night912 Well-Known Member

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    You're still a Baha'i, even after your so called "evidence" were refuted. So clearly, that statement above is not true.

    BTW,
    Deniers will have to do their own research and find the refuted information that I'm talking. Lucky for you, all of them can be found on RF.
     
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  2. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    Passeges in the Book of Revelation talk of the new 'Abode of Peace' (Jerusalem), Revelation 3:12 and Revelation 21:2.

    The writings tell us the New Jerusalem is the Word of God. I personally see the outward reflection of that word, becomes the central point of the Faith, a true abide of peace for our souls.

    Regards Tony
     
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  3. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    I would offer, no one that does not want to read the writings should.

    If they do choose to, then the best form of English was chosen, that better portrays the beauty of the Arabic an Persian languages, according to Shoghi Effendi, who was well educated to make such a decision.

    Regards Tony
     
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  4. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    People still say the earth is flat. Are you offering, as they put forward their evidence for a refutation of a round world, that on that basis it is correct?

    If not, people can refute all they want, they can provide their chosen evidence, but if it does not stand up, then the choice of being a Baha'i remains valid.

    Regards Tony
     
  5. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    Personally I do see that it is as simple as the choices we make in virtue and morality and the lack of good choices thereof.

    Isaiah 45:7 says it very simply, with a universal infinite meaning. God has offered,

    "7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

    That to me reflects exactly what the prayer of the Bab offers.

    Regards Tony
     
  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    No, that is not what I said. Never ever did I say that I know that God spoke directly to Baha'u'llah because Baha'u'llah 'said so.' In fact, on numerous occasions I said that it would be circular reasoning to believe that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be 'because He said so.' Then I went on to explain all the evidence that shows that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be, in which case God spoke to Him, since that is part of His claim.

    However, the reason I know is not just because of the evidence, it is because of how I interpret the evidence, what I believe it means, and I can see it because I was guided by God to be able to see it.

    “Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognise His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which, though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such a blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognising the truth of this Revelation. We cherish the hope that you, who have attained to this light, will exert your utmost to banish the darkness of superstition and unbelief from the midst of the people. May your deeds proclaim your faith and enable you to lead the erring into the paths of eternal salvation. The memory of this night will never be forgotten. May it never be effaced by the passage of time, and may its mention linger for ever on the lips of men.”

    (Baha'u'llah, quoted by Shoghi Effendi in The Dawn-Breakers, p. 586)

    The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, p. 586
     
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  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    He did not do that Himself and no scriptures say that the Messiah will do that Himself. In His Writings Baha'u'llah revealed what will be necessary in order for peace and harmony to be established on earth.
     
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  8. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    I see these discussions show clearly the twofold station of the Messages given by God's chosen Messengers, which is most likely a good thing to point out.

    On the One hand the Dispensation is Abrogated on and the Other it is Fulfilled and vindicated.

    Jesus said it in a less direct way by offering, that if you had listened to Moses you would listen to me, as Moses wrote about Jesus Christ, and then on the other hand said all must give up the past ways and turn unto Him.

    Regards Tony
     
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  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    It is possible for an atheist to believe that, yes. Only God knows what is possible, so there is your answer.

    Possible
    able to be done; within the power or capacity of someone or something.
    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=possible+means
     
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  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Because then you would have to explain how the Baha'i World Center came to be established atop Mt. Carmel in fulfillment of all the Bible prophecies that refer to that establishment.

    Got any ideas?
     
    #2650 Trailblazer, Sep 18, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2021
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  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Saying that you have refuted the evidence is not the same as doing what you say you have done, refuting the evidence. I see no demonstration that any of the evidence I have presented has been refuted and thus you are making a bald assertion.

    What is "bald assertion?" Well the name says it all, doesn't it? It's stating something without backing it up. Now sometimes this is alright - if it's painfully obvious. Like the definition of a common word or nine by seven being sixty three. You shouldn't waste everyone's time asking your opponent in a debate to prove nine by seven is sixty three, accusing him of bald assertion. It's true he did assert something baldly, but it's logical to do that sometimes when it's very common knowledge and not even a matter of any debate whatsoever.

    You don't need to cover and cite sources behind every thing you say, just behind the key points, and their key ingredients. The topics being argued over. They're the focus of the day anyway.

    Bald assertion is when you state something without backing it up. For example, merely stating your position statement would be this type of fallacious.

    Logical Fallacy Lesson 4: Bald Assertion | Rational Response Squad
    What information? You have presented no information. All you is a bald assertion.
    You have a 'personal opinion' about the evidence and what it represents, nothing more.
     
    #2651 Trailblazer, Sep 18, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2021
  12. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    So it does "abrogate" some things? Like their dispensation. And some of their laws. And some of the things they teach as true but aren't.

    But I don't agree with the Baha'i Faith putting each into a "dispensation". When did the Hindu dispensation begin and end for instance?
     
  13. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    These five points were for Tiberius. He has them at the end of all his posts.
    1. The prophecy must not be about something that is likely to happen anyway.
    2. Where we have verified that the prophecy was written prior to the event that fulfilled it.
    3. Where we have verified that the event that fulfilled it really took place in a way that fulfilled the prophecy.
    4. The the fulfilling event was not done by someone simply to make the prophecy come true.
    5. The prophecy is specific and is not open to interpretation.

    But let's see how they work.
    The first... already a problem. Did a "young maiden" give birth to a child or did a "virgin"? The second, yes, it was written before the birth of Jesus. The third, Nope, wrong. Two gospel writers are the only ones that mention the birth of Jesus and only one, Matthew, quote Isaiah. Your "verification" is Baha'u'llah I suppose? But, there's another problem... It didn't take place in a way that fulfilled the prophecy. It doesn't fit the context of Isaiah chapter 7. When Jesus got old enough to know right from wrong, and after he ate his curds and honey, did the two kings that were planning to attack Judah die? No. But, if you are okay with pulling verse 14 out of context and calling it a prophecy, then go ahead. But why isn't that cherry-picking? Okay, next one... No, but maybe Matthew took an oral tradition about Jesus being born of a virgin and wrote it down. He did take other verses out of context, so it is very possible that he was just looking for verses to add to his story and say they were fulfilled prophecies. He wasn't there. He wasn't an eyewitness. Where did he get his information? No one else tells the same story. Something easily made up. Then the last one, in context it is specific... a young woman will give birth to a son and when he gets older the two kings will be dead. The tough part... the word "Almah". That's a problem. Does it mean "virgin" or does it mean "young maiden"? Was it specific that it was a woman in Isaiah's time or a woman several hundred years later? If this was a prophecy way later, what happened to the King of Judah and the two kings wanting to attack him? Isaiah said the sign was for him?

    Since Baha'is make so many things in the Bible "allegorical" and not literal, why this one? Why make something so easily faked... something that literally happened? And how literal do you believe it? Since the two accounts contradict themselves? The only reason seems to be is because Baha'u'llah said so. Fine, if it doesn't cause you any of that nasty cognitive dissonance go for it.
     
  14. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

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    Again, I will point out that I am talking about the world that actually exists, not our perceptions of the world.
     
  15. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

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    *sigh*

    But is such a person justified in claiming that they KNOW it?

    How could they KNOW the election was stolen if the election was actually completely fair?
     
  16. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    I personally see it as a progression. The world has seasons, man has a time on earth, it is all reflected from the word of God which also has a set season.

    Anyway, we can consider that man has inherintantly abrogated many of Gods teachings from their lives for their own selves.

    Regards Tony
     
  17. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    I talk of that same world, it is only a matter of perception, our relative understanding.

    Ask what a blind or a death man from birth perceives the world like, it would radically different from those with sight or hearing.

    So if we are not willing to embrace spiritual visions, how can we perceive what we do not look for?

    Baha'u'llah has offered this for us to consider.

    "Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths. Take heed that ye do not vacillate in your determination to embrace the truth of this Cause—a Cause through which the potentialities of the might of God have been revealed, and His sovereignty established. With faces beaming with joy, hasten ye unto Him. This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.
    Say: This is the infallible Balance which the Hand of God is holding, in which all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth are weighed, and their fate determined, if ye be of them that believe and recognize this truth."

    That to me offers that it is our choice, 100% so.

    Regards Tony
     
  18. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    They have gathered their evidence to suit that agenda, they want their stance to be the truth, they want to be justified in that stance.

    With God, the evidence is given and asks us to look and make a choice, nothing needs to be fabricated, just as in the quote I will post again, as it answers this as well.

    "Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths. Take heed that ye do not vacillate in your determination to embrace the truth of this Cause—a Cause through which the potentialities of the might of God have been revealed, and His sovereignty established. With faces beaming with joy, hasten ye unto Him. This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.
    Say: This is the infallible Balance which the Hand of God is holding, in which all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth are weighed, and their fate determined, if ye be of them that believe and recognize this truth."

    Regards Tony
     
  19. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    With this CG we must Balance Science and Faith. Faith tells me that God created and can do as God wills. Baha'u'llah offerd he could utter one word and make all beleivers, but that would alter this reality, its purpose.

    Scientifically could it be possible for a virgin to give birth, most likely not, but here is the thing, we have no way of knowing what happened now either way.

    So what is the spiritual ramifications of such a story? It could be a simple reality that as a Messenger is born from a womb, in our reality they are born of the Holy Spirit. That Spirit is given and not conceived.

    Personally I see no need to dwell on it, there is much more practical things to pursue.

    We could also ask what is the chance of 300 musket balls missing two targets by trained troops?

    Regards Tony
     
    #2659 TransmutingSoul, Sep 18, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2021
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  20. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Actually, it was not the Baha'i Faith who wrote that, it was me, and later I realized that it was not exactly correct because of what Shoghi Effendi wrote. “In conclusion of this theme, I feel, it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it, " God Passes By, p. 100

    I believe this part of what I said -- "Once a Messenger of God has completed His Mission on earth, what He revealed is pertinent only until the next Messenger of God appears."

    is correct because except for the spiritual teachings what He revealed is pertinent only until the next Messenger of God appears.

    However, this part of what I said -- "Moreover, every time God sends a new Messenger, His Revelation abrogates all the Revelations that came before it and the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is according to the religion that He establishes."

    is not necessarily correct, because Shoghi Effendi only said that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it. He did not say that all the previous dispensations abrogated all the dispensations that preceded them and as such the Hindu dispensation was not necessarily abrogated by the dispensations that came later.
     
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